Related to #Stricter policies at Articles for deletion above, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion (hereinafter referred to as WP:AFD) is not marked as either a policy or a guideline. Yet it is the description of the process for deleting articles where speedy criteria and "Proposed deletion" do not apply, and is linked from both Wikipedia:Deletion policy (a policy) and Wikipedia:Deletion process (a guideline). An ongoing RfC at Template talk:Article for deletion#RFC: Add Instruction Not to Move seeks to change the text of Template:Article for deletion/dated in a way that would make it differ fundamentally from WP:AFD - specifically, that the template would explicitly prohibit page moves during an AFD, whereas WP:AFD would continue to explicitly permit them.

Should the pages describing a process (whether policy, guideline or other) themselves drive, or may they be driven by, the text of a template used in that process? Where they differ, which one has precedence?

I would like the status of WP:AFD clarified. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:22, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

AFD is more a workspace for the implementation of the policy for deletion, and neither is a policy or guideline. It is expected that editors follow the filing process at AFD as given to make it easy, but we aren't going to take action against those that accidentally misfile or go outside the instructions there. --Masem (t) 20:42, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that all of the XfDs (including RM) aren't tagged as either policy, guideline, information page, etc, so that might be of interest as well. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 04:13, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think any 'process' pages (XfD, AN, arbitration, the noticeboards, etc.) are marked as policies or guidelines, are they? Policies and guidelines are about editing; these are just descriptions of how the process works. And if you're going to use a process, it seems obvious that you should follow the instructions unless there's a good reason not to. We have processes to make it easier to work together on common tasks—often ones like AfD that have to handle hundreds of discussions every week—and if someone decides they don't want to follow them just because the page doesn't have a particular template at the top, frankly they're just being a dick. – Joe (talk) 10:13, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

It might be worthwhile to create a template for such process pages that can sit at the top of such pages, something like "This is a process page that supports the implementation of (policy or guideline). It itself is not a policy or guideline, and these instructions should not be used to directly guide content or behavioral decisions of the community." , since we do have so many of these. --Masem (t) 12:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

You don't make WP:WIKILAWYERing go away by coddling the trolls. You make it go away by ignoring it; best practices are best practices, and those that argue that we can ignore best practices because of a label on the page where the best practices are written are not people we need to consider in these matters; they need to be stopped at all costs, not catered to with more faux-legalise to act as weapons in their arsenal of bullshit. This is just further WP:CREEP, and not useful. We need less, not more, of this kind of thing. --Jayron32 13:07, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Redrose64 created this thread in response to a question/discussion she and I were having on another page. She called something a guideline that wasn't labeled a guideline and I told her I found this confusing. I'd appreciate it if you guys would be a bit nicer and stop calling me a dick, a troll, telling people to ignore me, etc. This idea that we shouldn't clearly label things because it's too bureaucratic... I find it strange. It is a general principle of good documentation that documentation should be clear and accurate. People shouldn't have to read between the lines, discover something through experience, etc. If a page is regarded to be as strong as a policy or guideline, and it is not labeled as such, then why leave good faith readers to guess how strong it is when we can just tell them? This seems illogical, counter-intuitive, etc. If anything, the wikilawyering here is not me asking the question "should this be labeled as a guideline?", but rather folks trying to say that things that have not passed an official RFC giving them the strength of a policy/guideline are a policy/guideline, shortcutting our system for gathering consensus and allowing the argument that any random page is some kind of secret PAG. How confusing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:24, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

My comment wasn't directed at you (or anyone specifically). I have no idea what prior discussions you were having with Redrose64. – Joe (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• Damn dirty trolls aside -- AfD (as well as MfD, TfD, CfD etc) drive the majority of Wikipedia:Deletion policy and Wikipedia:Deletion process (a P and a G, respectively). A lot of what these pages say is along the lines of "the policy is that you follow what it says at WP:AFD". jp×g 17:28, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
• WP:AFD and the other "process pages" like it ought to be made into guidelines, but only after being substantially rewritten and condensed. The reason I think they should be guidelines is to prevent WP:CREEP--to make it so that consensus is required for substantive changes--because otherwise, we end up with a page like what WP:AFD is today: bloated and full of statements that probably don't have consensus, are outdated, and that few people probably read or follow. (I would oppose the promotion of the current pages to guidelines, for the same reason.) Levivich 16:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

  I disagree that all process and procedure pages should be approved as guidelines. The main distinguishing characteristic between policies, guidelines, and general "ways of working" guidance is the degree of consensus support underlying them. For all day-to-day operating procedures to become guidelines would mean we would require a high degree of broad community support for each one and every subsequent change. This would be onerous and inflexible, and for many procedures, unnecessary: for the most part, the editors most interested in a given area should have the ability to quickly revise and refine their ways of working, as they are the ones most directly affected. Where there is conflict between ways of working and community-approved guidelines or policies, there should be a discussion to bring them back into alignment.

  I sympathize with the problem of changes to guidance pages which do not reflect consensus practices or views. However this is an ongoing issue regardless of the label on the page, and I think the ensuing discussions proceed in much the same way regardless of how the page is categorized.

  I also sympathize with the problem of guidance pages becoming bloated. For better or worse, English Wikipedia's collaborative environment and consensus-based decision-making traditions make it really hard to copy edit ruthlessly. The path of least resistance is to try to keep everyone happy by letting them add their viewpoints. Most editors just want to get on with editing articles instead of debating how to keep guidance concise and organize it in a way to support this. (Trying to write something in a group conversation is just very difficult.) isaacl (talk) 21:30, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

• The XfDs are process pages, and they derive authority from Wikipedia:Deletion policy. As process pages, they work to keep discussions in a central, well-known, and easily-found place. Where XfD pages produce outcomes that are not deletion, then the outcome relies on WP:Consensus. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

It's not "marked" as a policy or guideline because Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. WP:AFD in itself literally functions as a policy/guideline even without being marked as such and is a supplement of the deletion policy. Using common sense, anyone reading WP:AFD should already be able to infer that whatever is stated on that page should be followed the same as any policy/guideline and is itself documented community practice. I don't see any reason to change the status just for the sake of changing it. —Mythdon (talk • contribs) 08:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Can (and shall) controversial information about non-BLP subjects — with no concerns about sourcing or due-ness — be avoided from discussing in article-leads, simply because they are controversial and might escalate vandalism? How does NOTCENSOR apply in such cases?

Opinions are welcome at this discussion. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:37, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• From my experience, anything relating to castes is potentially controversial. Figuring out what information should and should not go in the lead is a matter of editorial consensus. Nothing “must” be included in the lead, but nothing is barred from the lead. NOTCENSOR applies to whether information should be discussed (somewhere) in an article, not whether that something is highlighted in the lead. Blueboar (talk) 13:00, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Ditto that it's editorial consensus, and NOTCENSOR and vandalism aren't the primary considerations. I tend to find the two main factors in the lede decision are a high degree of notability regarding the article topic suggesting inclusion in the lede, and a high degree of complexity and nuance to depict the controversy in an NPOV way suggesting absence from the lede. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:15, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree with the other two. Consider an article like Gary Glitter, a famous musician who was convicted of child sex offences. There was quite a lot of discussion around how much focus needed to be given to it in the lede. I appreciate that that article is a BLP, but the same principle applies to any article that it's subject-specific and should be conesnsus driven by the editors working on that particular article. Blanket rules are likely to be abused by those trying to downplay controversy that does deserve mention. Theknightwho (talk) 21:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• Simply assuming that there are no concerns about due-ness or sourcing is a pretty big leap. I'm also generally cautious about people invoking WP:NOTCENSORED for the purposes of arguing for inclusion - it runs the risk of derailing arguments by effectively focusing on the weakest opposition (or violating WP:AGF by ascribing that motive to absolutely all opposition.) Looking at the discussion at Talk:Baidya#Lead, there were several objections raised, not just the fact that it went against a longstanding (local) consensus. For one thing it seems like your edits clearly went against WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, which to me is often a red flag that they were WP:UNDUE (since if nobody previously thought it was due to even mention this in the body, how can you reasonably make the argument that it's due to add it directly to the lead?) Or, in other words - at best, NOTCENSORED only allows you to include something; it doesn't require it, so the WP:ONUS is still on you to get consensus, even in a situation where you think everyone's reasons for disagreeing with you are terrible. Because of that, you would be better off focusing on reasons why you think it is leadworthy (its importance to the topic, etc) instead. Also, since you implied the edits reverting you could be vandalism - it's important to understand that an edit made in good faith is never vandalism. No matter how strongly you believe that their arguments are wrong and invalid, as long as they sincerely believe them and sincerely believe they are improving the article or Wikipedia a whole by making them, it at least passes the very low threshold of not being vandalism. --Aquillion (talk) 03:01, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Is an editor permitted to move an article from article space into draft space while an Article for Deletion nomination is pending? I am asking because I thought that I knew the answer, but it appears that there is disagreement. I had thought, once an AFD was properly started, moving the article to draft space was not permitted. In the past, if an article has been moved to draft space, it has been moved back to article space, and the AFD allowed to run for seven days, with Draftify being one of the possible closes. However, in the most recent case, the article was moved to draft space, and then a non-admin did a Speedy Close of the AFD, stating that the AFD rationale is no longer valid, because the article was moved to draft space.

So what is the policy? Can an article be moved to draft space, closing the AFD? Or should the article be left in article space to allow the deletion discussion to run for the usual seven days? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:26, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

The AFD template on the article says not to remove the template and not to blank the page. It doesn't say not to move the page. (The template on a page that is pending MFD has a longer list of things not to do, including moving the page.) Robert McClenon (talk) 03:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I think it's generally unwise to boldly draftify an article if an AfD is pending, especially if at least one editor has expressed opposition to draftification. WP:AFDTODRAFT, which might be the guidance that you're looking for, states that hile there is no prohibition against moving an article while an AfD or deletion review discussion is in progress, editors considering doing so should realize such a move can confuse the discussion greatly, can preempt a closing decision, can make the discussion difficult to track, and can lead to inconsistencies when using semi-automated closing scripts. So, there's currently no policy prohibition, though there are ways in which it can be disruptive. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 03:40, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Like Mhawk says, there's a long-standing consensus that moving articles during an AfD is disruptive. I also can't imagine that an article at AfD would be eligible for draftication, unless there hadn't been any !votes for any other outcome. Even then, incubation in draftspace is a possible outcome of an AfD, so the early close is ending the discussion prematurely and pre-empting consensus. It might be justified in some WP:IAR edge cases, but otherwise this sounds like a bad close and should be reversed. – Joe (talk) 07:46, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, User:Joe Roe, User:Mhawk10. I have observed this at least several times, usually where the person moving the article to draft space had previously moved it to article space. That is, the editor moving the article into draft space was previously the proponent or author of the article. It was in draft space, either because it was in review or because it had been moved to draft space once already. Then the proponent decides that it is ready for article space. Someone nominates it for AFD at this point. Then the proponent moves it back to draft space. If this sounds like gaming the system, that is because I think it is gaming the system. My own opinion is that the current policy is wishy-washy, but that is only my opinion. My own opinion is that, because it doesn't prohibit this behavior, it enables a proponent to try to sneak a page into article space and then run back. But maybe the community wants the policy to be ambiguous. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:32, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I will add that I have in particular observed this behavior in an area where the notability guidelines have been ambiguous for more than ten years, films that are pending release. Part of the problem is that the notability guideline has been ambiguous, and an effort to clarify the guidelines resulted in No Consensus. A typical sequence is:

• A. There is a draft.
• B. A proponent moves it to article space.
• C. A New Page reviewer moves it back to draft space, saying Not Ready for Article Space, Incubate in Draft Space.
• D. The proponent moves it to article space a second time.
• E. Another editor nominates it for deletion.
• F. Now the proponent moves it back to draft space.
• G1. An admin moves it back to article space and the AFD continues, or
• G2. A non-admin speedy-closes the AFD.

So, I think that the policy is ambiguous, but maybe the community wants it to be ambiguous. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:32, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

If I saw in the wild what you are describing above and the editor making these moves were either experienced or did this across multiple articles, I would start to look for signs of UPE in the editor’s history. It’s a bit odd.
I think the most natural thing to do would be to treat this akin to BLARing a page that is already up for AFD. Which is to say, please don't do it if you are not the uninvolved closer. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 14:46, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I'd be a bit more charitable and say that it's not gaming the system, but a common misunderstanding of the system that we wilfully perpetuate by treating draftspace and AfC as if they exist outside our usual collaborative norms. That is, we tell new editors wanting to write a new article that they must make a "draft" and that this will be reviewed for "publication". They probably go through a cycle at least once (either creating in mainspace and having it moved to draft, or having an AfC submission declined) that teaches them that if their draft is not suitable for publication, it is returned to them to work on further. Finally they get to a point where the reviewers are satisfied and... whoops, now it's at AfD and a bunch of other people are saying that it isn't suitable for publication after all! In that context, trying to move it back to draftspace to work on further is an entirely reasonable response based on how they've been led to believe Wikipedia works. Of course, in reality, the "draft" was never theirs and whether it was suitable for "publication" never had anything to do with their work or the decisions of reviewers, but was entirely dependent on community consensus on the merits of the topic it's about. But how the hell were they supposed to know that? We need to communicate better to these editors how mainspace ownership and collaboration actually works – or rather, we need to stop deliberately misleading them with the fantasy peer review and "publication" process offered by AfC. I'd say that starts with ending the review–decline–resubmit cycle: articles that start in mainspace should stay there, and drafts should only be moved once. In other words, if we get rid of steps C and D in your sequence, I think there's a good chance it will naturally eliminate F and G. – Joe (talk) 15:14, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

• Two general things we can that should deter these cases without the need for specially tailored rules directed at regular participants in AfDs is (i) say that if an AfD is irregular in that the content radically changes other than unambiguous improvement, including a move, then it is then not suitable for NAC, and (ii) the closer of the AfD is to interpret the question as to whether the content belongs in mainspace under the given name. Then, we will only don't delete the article if the closer interprets the AfD as asking for draftify.

Apart from my general aversion to rule creep, I'm happy with codifying that this behaviour is unacceptable. — Charles Stewart (talk) 15:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I have observed some UPE editors using this technique in an attempt to avoid completion of the AfD. MarioGom (talk) 11:12, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I think that a rule saying not to move an article to draft space while an AFD is open is a good idea and has a low wp:creep risk. To me it looks like it should be too obvious to need saying. The AFD period is brief, and I see no non-disruptive reason for such a move. BTW, we should understand that AFC is a tough venue. Edge case articles that would survive in mainspace are usually rejected in AFC because the folks there are playing it safe, the alternative being "go out on a limb" with an edge case article. We should both thank the AFC folks for what they do and also be nice to the folks trying to get their article through AFC. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:58, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

First, I agree with User:North8000 that codifying a rule against moving an article while it is being discussed for deletion is a minimal change in scope, and would add that I have seen it done often enough that I think it should be either forbidden or permitted, and I think forbidden is a better approach.

Second, to User:Joe Roe, in the cases that I have observed, I am willing to assume good faith and say that sometimes it isn't UPE. (Sometimes it is.) In particular, it happens with future films, and the editors who do it are simply ultras, fanatics, willing to game the system to get an upcoming film listed.

Third, to User:Joe Roe, this is related to the problem of move-warring between article space and draft space. The repeated moving of an article from article space to draft space is move-warring, and should be avoided. If a proponent moves the page back into article space, the proper response is not to draftify it again, but to nominate it for deletion. But after it is nominated for deletion, sometimes the proponent then tries to pull it back into draft space.

Fourth, I was about to ask what BLARing a page is. It is cutting down to a redirect. Redirect wars are common in music disputes.

Robert McClenon (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Fifth, the speedy close in the case in point was done in good faith because the closer didn't know that the move to draft space was out of process. The move to draft space was not in good faith, but the speedy close was in good faith; the closer just thought that they were wrapping up a loose end. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:07, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

• I think moving to draft space should not be allowed during an AFD. Instead someone who wants to do that should propose it in the AFD discussion, then others can support or oppose that idea. Also any move during the discussion is a bit disruptive, though I can see why it may happen, eg error in title; title is an attack on someone eg "Joe Blow (loser)". If someone wants to change the scope of the article by renaming, then that should be discussed in the AFD anyway. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:47, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
  • As I have outlined, the problem has to do with an editor who is determined to have an article in article space, and has moved it into article space after it was moved back into draft space. But then, when it is nominated for deletion, the editor says, "Oh. Now I am willing to compromise and have it in draft space rather than have an AFD." And they hadn't been willing to compromise earlier. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:20, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I have had this arise as an issue recently. In my view, if the gist of the AfD nomination is that the subject is notable but the article needs to be completely rewritten, and a review of the article confirms this, then a move to draft space is immediately justifiable. It immediately removes poor content from article space, thereby improving the encyclopedia, and does not disrupt the discussion of the AfD question of whether such an article should exist in Wikipedia. The article is still visible, and quite frankly, because improvements to the article can be made in any space, it is less disruptive to the discussion than substantial efforts to improve the article while it remains in mainspace. BD2412 T 01:20, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

User:BD2412 - I can see that this case will occasionally happen. But, if so, is it unreasonable to wait until the AFD is concluded in 7 days with a conclusion to Draftify? Alternatively, if everyone agrees, can the AFD be SNOW-closed? Also, are you, BD2412, saying that the AFD should then continue while the article is in draft space? That isn't consistent with current policy. Do we need an exception to current policy, or can we simply wait until the AFD concludes? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:32, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I am saying, let's not let the bureaucratic be the enemy of the good. If the article is a hoax or an unfixably non-notable subject, then the move should not matter and the discussion should conclude as it concludes. If the issue is that the article is in poor shape (WP:TNT) is raised often, that's another matter. BD2412 T 03:42, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that User:BD2412 is saying that an AFD can continue (conclude as it concludes) while the article is no longer in article space. Is that correct? If that is correct, then does the close of the AFD resolve the matter of what space the page should be in, if any? If so, that would mean that moving the article to draft space does not stop the AFD. In the cases I have been describing, the purpose of moving the article to draft space was to stop the AFD. So are you saying that an AFD should run to conclusion, then that means that moving the article should not stop the AFD, which should continue. That is interesting. Do other editors agree? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:35, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the AfD can continue running. I think this is no different than an AfD continuing to run after an article remaining in mainspace has undergone a complete overhaul that removes the problems that prompted the AfD nomination and adds a dozen high quality reliable sources. I would give as an example John T. Newton, which was nominated looking like this (three lines, no sources). BD2412 T 19:54, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Do other editors agree with User:BD2412 that an AFD can continue running after the article is moved into another namespace? I think that is a very good idea, and would prevent the devious use of the move back into draft space. If so, that would mean that the author of a questionable article is taking the risk of an AFD, and, once properly started, the AFD can continue. Do other editors agree that moving an article out of article space does not stop an AFD that was validly started? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

In other words, a page can only be nominated for AFD if it is in article space when nominated, but the AFD continues in any space. Is this correct? If so, administrators should be aware of this provision, so that they will know that draftifying cannot be used to stop an AFD.

As I said at the beginning, moving an article into draft space to stop an AFD is a relatively common abuse. It should be clarified that it doesn't work. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:57, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I doesn't "sit" right with me to be having an AFD without a corresponding "article". I agree with the others who said Draftify during an AFD should be prohibited. AFD is a formal process that usually provides a clear answer and once started, should conclude. As with everything, there are exceptions. Hoaxes can be CSDed, which immediately ends the AFD. This same thing happens when one editor AFDs an article and subsequently someone else says CSD G11. But for the more routine case of a notability issue, there is no great rush. MB 00:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• If the AfD is running, DO NOT move the article to draftspace without closing the AfD. If you are not competent to close the AfD (eg too inexperienced, or involved with the article) then do not Draftify, but instead !vote in the AfD your opinion for why it should be draftified. If consensus is to draftify, then the AfD can be closed per that consensus. Seven days is not strictly required, especially if consensus is for a non-deletion result. I can easily imagine that an AfD nominator may very easily agree with the first comment or two that advise to draftify, and the nominator withdraws the AfD and draftifys. This would be an AfD speedy close and subject to the WP:Draftify conditions. Alternatively, the AfD consensus may be SNOW Draftify, meaning the page can be draftified per consensus at AfD overcoming objections such as from the author.
  Leaving the AfD running on a draftified page would be disruptive to the AfD process. The templates would go red, and scripts wouldn’t work, and later editors browsing AfD would be frustrated. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:43, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
• User:SmokeyJoe raises good points about why moving a page out of the article namespace during an AFD is a bad idea, and will mess up the scripts and templates. However, SmokeyJoe appears to be assuming that I am asking about a good faith effort, when he refers to whether the editor is competent to close the AFD. The instances that I am asking about are not good faith editing. The cases that I am asking about have to do with editors who have pushed a draft into article space, typically after it has already been draftified at least once. So then a reviewer nominates it for deletion. SmokeyJoe has been involved recently in other discussions about draftification, and we agree that an editor has the right to object to draftification, and to insist on keeping an article in article space. But SmokeyJoe has, I think, also agreed that in that case, the author is taking the risk that an AFD discussion will be started. The question is about a namespace two-step, in which the author first pushes the page into article space, and then tries to pull it back into draft space to defeat the AFD that is an appropriate response to pushing the article into article space.
• So it isn't a matter of whether the author is competent to close the AFD; they are not only involved but are playing a game. The question is how should the community deal with an editor who tries to stop an AFD by hiding the article in non-article space. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
• I have seen two different ideas. First, some editors think that moving the article out of article space should be forbidden. Second, some editors think that the move should be ignored and the AFD should go on anyway. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

  I think my answer silently covered the “bad faith” page proponent.

  My answer implies that draftification is forbidden by an INVOLVED editor, as they aren’t able to closed the AfD. This means that the editor who ignored AfC negative responses and mainspaced the draft anyway can interfere if the AfD heading towards deletion. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

  • User:SmokeyJoe - I think that your last sentence is missing a negative, or something. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

    This means that the editor who ignored AfC negative responses and mainspaced the draft anyway can’t interfere if the AfD is heading towards deletion. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:28, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

  An editor who breaks the rules and tries to shut down the AfD by draftifying should be reverted, warned, and blocked if they do it again.

  G7 does not prevent an AfD from finding a consensus to delete.

  Note that if an AfD determines a topic to be non-notable, this makes its non-notability a fact in any future MfD on future drafts. MfD does not examine notability, but it does pay attention to past AfD results. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:28, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

  In the cases that I am discussing, the proponent isn't trying to shut down the AFD because it is "heading towards deletion", but tries to shut it down before it is heading anywhere, because they don't want an AFD. They just want what they want, and are playing a game. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

  It appears that User:SmokeyJoe is either saying or implying that the article may not be draftified or otherwise moved during the AFD, because the AFD must be closed first. This comes back to the question of whether the template on the article should include a statement that it should not be moved during the deletion discussion. A page that is at MFD already says that it should not be blanked or moved. A page that is at AFD says that it should not be blanked.

  It now seems that this is about the template. Sure, the AfD template should say “Do not move the page while the AfD is in progress”. In a separate process, an active AfD trumps the RM process.

  I don’t think there is any need to ascribe motive to the draft mainspacer, whether they did it for this reason or that, once the mainspace page is AfD-ed, short of speedy deletion, the AfD has to play out. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

  I am not attributing motive to the draft mainspacer as such. Anyone has the right to mainspace a draft. I am attributing motive to anyone who moves an article back into draft space after it has been tagged for AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:42, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  I see a lot of agreement that a page with the AfD tag should not be moved. So add this statement to the AfD tag. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

• I certainly think AfDs should continue regardless of what enterprising participants do with the content. The point of my previous comment was that I think we should forbid NACs if the AfD is irregular because the content is moved. I'm open to us forbidding draftification once an AfD is started in addition. — Charles Stewart (talk) 06:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
• Careful with the wording… Draftifying (or even re-draftification) is a perfectly legitimate result for an AFD… it just shouldn’t be used to bypass an AFD. Blueboar (talk) 14:19, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

  This is my thinking in suggesting rules:

  • If the page is AfD tagged, do not move it.
  • Do not remove the AfD tag while the AfD is open.
  • Do not close the AfD if you are INVOLVED.
  • CSD#G7 may not be used during an AfD, instead !vote as author agreeing to deletion.
  • Draftify, instead of delete, is a perfectly acceptable outcome of an AfD, if that is the Consensus of the discussion. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I have started an RFC to add an instruction not to move the article to the instructions not to remove the template or blank the article. https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Template_talk:Article_for_deletion#RFC:_Add_Instruction_Not_to_Move

(I can't unilaterally add a statement to the template, which is protected.) Robert McClenon (talk) 22:08, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

By the way, probably the most recent example of an attempt to move an article to draft space to defeat an AFD can be seen at M Miraz Hossain. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:12, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

• Concurring with Robert McClenon: Someone nominates it for AFD at this point. Then the proponent moves it back to draft space. If this sounds like gaming the system, that is because I think it is gaming the system. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:51, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this or not. Happy to close and move it if it's not. TLDR version; the guidance for naming events is out of step from how we actually name those articles. Do we update the guidance, or fix the article names?

At WP:NCEVENTS we have guidance for how to name articles on how to name articles that typically involve significant loss of life. Mass shootings, military and political conflicts, natural disasters, terrorist attacks, transport or industrial accidents, that sort of thing. That guidance has a few conventions for how to name an article when there is a lack of a common name for it. When that is the case, it says that articles should be named using a When, Where, What convention. Examples given in the guidance are 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami and 1993 Russian constitutional crisis. However, if you take a look at Category:2022 mass shootings, as well as its subcategories, half of those articles (18 following NCE, 18 not, 36 total) are not following this pattern. If you look at Category:2021 mass shootings and subcategories, we see similar (19 following NCE, 25 not, 45 total). However I think for 2021 mass shootings, that may be expected as with approximately a year having passed, there has been time for a common name to develop.

My attention was drawn to this by two move discussions happening at Talk:2022 Laguna Woods shooting#Requested move 21 May 2022, and Talk:2022 Buffalo shooting#Requested move 19 May 2022. While I have made an opinion on the merits of both of those moves, having looked deeper I see that this particular issue goes beyond whatever local consensus is established at those two articles. At both move requests, a number of editors have stated that the naming convention for events like mass shootings, is to use Where and What only, excluding When, feeling that When as a disambiguator is only needed whenever there is more than one event at a given Where. If Where, What is indeed the convention, then do we need to update the text at WP:NCE to reflect this? Or is there perhaps instead some extrapolation of a local consensus to a wider set of articles? If so, do we need to rename a subset of articles in categories like 2022 mass shootings, where no common name exists to match the guidance? Or is neither of these appropriate, and perhaps instead we should soften the language at NCE to something like In the majority of cases, it is recommended that the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors:?

Oh and because it may come up, I don't want this to be read as WP:FORUMSHOPPING the name of those two articles. Instead I want to focus on the broader issue of inconsistency between the guidance on naming this set of articles, and the practice of how we're actually naming those articles. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:13, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I think in general, Year, Place, Event is descriptive and helpful to readers. Looking at the examples at WP:NCE that do not follow the normal convention, 2 of the 4 have notes distinguishing the article from other similar events at the same location. --Enos733 (talk) 05:02, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree, though my issue isn't with the examples at NCE, but the discontinuity between what the guidance says these types of articles should be named, and how we're actually naming these articles in practice.

Another example appeared around the time I posted this thread. Robb Elementary School shooting. Let me walk you briefly through the page name history there. The article was created at 20:09, 24 May 2022 (UTC) with the name "2022 Uvalde shooting". Three minutes later, at 20:12, 24 May 2022 (UTC) it was moved to "Robb Elementary School shooting", with an edit summary of moved page 2022 Uvalde shooting to Robb Elementary School shooting: per other school shooting articles. It remained there for about forty minutes, before being moved again at 20:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC) to "2022 Robb Elementary School shooting", with no edit summary. Before being moved one last time, at 20:53, 24 May 2022 (UTC) back to "Robb Elementary School shooting" with an edit summary of moved page 2022 Robb Elementary School shooting to Robb Elementary School shooting over redirect: only one such incident occurred here, date unnecessary. Emphasis in both of the quoted edit summaries is mine.

This brief move war is similar to the ones that took place at the Buffalo and Laguna Woods shooting pages. Not withstanding editors who are unfamiliar with WP:NCE, I would suggest that these edit wars have occurred because of the difference between what the guidance tells us these articles should be named, and what editors are actually naming these articles when the events occur. As such, either we have a not insubstantial number of incorrectly named articles, because they do not follow the convention as lain out at NCE, or we have a naming convention at NCE that is fundamentally out of step with how editors are actually naming this type of article. So how do we address this? Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:02, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

It's standard to not include the year when there's only one event of that type at that location. School attacks are usually named after the school.

A more common dispute & inconsistency is that most articles about mass shootings in the US include the victims' names, because most American editors of those articles want them included. However, mass-casualty incidents of other types &/or in other countries usually don't include victims' names because most editors of other nationalities don't want them included. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:12, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Jim, you've been beating this drum repeatedly over the past couple of weeks, but the consensus just isn't with you on this one. In the discussions we've had, at 2022 Buffalo shooting and other venues, the general feeling (which I also share) has been that the year is mostly useful in identifying these things. In a few cases, such as Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, the event is so firmly etched on in the public memory that adding a year isn't necessary, but that's the exception rather than the rule. There was a time when I used to argue the opposite, that we should omit the year per WP:CONCISE, but I have been persuaded otherwise, and from a reader-centric point of view it's definitely very valuable to include it.

As an aside, I'm wondering if "Robb Elementary School shooting" is actually the best sort of name for that incident at all. The press seem to be mostly referring to it as simply the "Texas school shooting" or similar.12 If I were God of the Wiki I'd probably name this article 2022 Texas school shooting, because at the end of the day it's WP:COMMONNAME that should be guiding our naming first and foremost, not adhering to some nebulous convention.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:23, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

It might be best to wait a few weeks and look at news sources again to see how they routinely call it. In the short term a reasonably neutral name should be selected and I can see either of "2022 Uvalde school shooting" or "Robb Elementary School shooting" right now, but in 2-3 weeks we probably will have a better idea what the media will routinely call it and then it can be moved, as necessary. --Masem (t) 12:21, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

The problem with "2022 Texas school shooting" is that there is almost certainly bound to be more than one school shooting in Texas in 2022. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

While I can sympathise with the point, at least one of those examples is counter to the guidance at NCE. How do we reconcile that with text that says In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When the incident happened. Where the incident happened. What happened? Emphasis from the page.

Also I'm not sure if 2-3 weeks is really anywhere near long enough when considered against WP:10YEARTEST. How long was it after the Sandy Hook shooting before Sandy Hook became the COMMONNAME for that event? Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:00, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Another week, another shooting. This time 2022 Warren Clinic shooting. Article move history is similar to Robb Elementary School shooting. It was created at "Warren Clinic shooting". I moved it to "2022 Warren Clinic shooting" citing NCE. Another editor moved it back twenty minutes later to "Warren Clinic shooting".

Serious question, given how frequent these mass shooting are, what can we do to ensure consistent article naming in the immediate to mid-term aftermath of an event such as this? Do we need an RfC to establish whether or not the guidance at NCE should be followed? Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I think this brings up another good point: I think it is impossible to know (at least in the USA, sadly) if this will be the only shooting at a location. While there have not been multiple mass shootings of note in the same location or city, that is only a yet.

I also agree with the fact that a common name cannot emerge directly after the shooting. Here's another point: with the frequency of the "smaller" mass shootings, will a common name ever emerge, or will they blend in with other shootings?

My point being this: my opinion is that for a year after the shooting, the naming convention for mass shootings should be Year, City, Type of Facility, shooting i.e 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting. Obviously, things can become clearer quicker than that, but we don't have a WP:CRYSTALBALL. Sheehanpg93 (talk) 20:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

If we're seriously considering renaming articles like Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting and Virginia Tech shooting to 2012 Newtown shooting, 2007 Blacksburg shooting, and the like, then we're way out of line. Those are WP:COMMONNAMEs and that is that. Love of Corey (talk) 02:07, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

That is a false equivalence. Articles like Sandy Hook and the Virgina Tech shooting quite clearly have a COMMONNAME. The When, Where, What part of NCE explicitly does not apply to those. What is actually an issue however is articles like the aforementioned Robb Elementary School shooting, 2022 Warren Clinic shooting, 2022 Buffalo shooting, and 2022 Laguna Woods shooting being named or having RMs to be named in a way that is non-compliant with how the guidance states these articles should be named in a lack of COMMONNAME. That is where the When, Where, What naming convention should be used, according to WP:NCE.

Either our guidance is wrong, and needs updating. Or we have a number of articles that are named wrong, and need updating. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Robb Elementary School shooting is clearly the WP:COMMONNAME, though. Love of Corey (talk) 02:17, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Actually, Robb Elementary School shooting only returns about 19.1 million results. Uvalde school shooting however returns about 33.2 million results. Though given that we primarily use the WP:10YEARTEST assessing recentism issues, we shouldn't be trying to guess what the COMMONNAME is for at least a year. Until that point, I would argue we should roughly follow what our sources do while also following the When, Where, What pattern and call the article 2022 Uvalde school shooting. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:22, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

And go against years of precedent with literally every U.S. school shooting article we've got? I don't think so. Love of Corey (talk) 02:26, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

If that is the case, then why is the guidance at NCEVENTS entirely at odds with this years of precedent? Why did the RM at the Buffalo article close with a no consensus to move finding if there is consensus against the When, Where, What pattern? Why too is the RM at the Laguna Woods article looking like it may close in the same way? And where was the consensus for that established? Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:30, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

If so, it needs to be reformed to reflect what we've been doing. Love of Corey (talk) 02:36, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Given that it would require an RfC to change that text, what if the consensus is instead that the guidance is correct and it is the articles are named incorrectly? Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:40, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

The article titles are good just the way they are. Love of Corey (talk) 02:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Clearly there is some significant disagreement over that. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:43, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Clearly. Love of Corey (talk) 02:46, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I will point out that (sadly) there were two shootings at/near Virginia Tech a year apart - the 2007 shooting and a 2006 shooting ("2006 Virginia Tech shooting" redirects to William Morva). - Enos733 (talk) 04:38, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Jim Michael 2: said the following at the current Warren Clinic shooting move request and I thought it was relevant to quote here:

Many editors routinely include the year in article titles because they see it in many & assume that it's routinely included. I didn't say that the month is never needed. In a significant minority of articles it's needed because there has been more than one of that event of that type in that place in that year, such as April 2022 Kabul mosque bombing & May 2022 Kabul mosque bombing. We don't include the month in the title unless it's necessary, nor should we the year. People who don't know an event took place aren't going to look it up, let alone the year it happened, so including the year in the title is of no use to anyone. Who could including the year in the title help? Links in articles, templates, categories etc. will work as well regardless of whether or not titles include years. Searches such as year/place/type of venue/type of event/perpetrator etc. will likewise show what they're looking for regardless. If you mention the Guildford pub bombings to people, they're either going to have heard of them or not. No-one is going to not know of them, but if you say the 1974 Guildford pub bombings, then they'll remember

Diff link to original comment

This I think cuts right to the heart of the issue in this discussion. According to Jim, many editors only include the title because they see it in other article titles and assume it is routine. However the text at WP:NCEVENTS actually says the reverse of this: If there is an established, common name for an event (such as the Great Depression, Cuban Missile Crisis or a "Bloody Sunday"), use that name. In the majority of cases, the title of the article should contain the following three descriptors: When the incident happened. Where the incident happened. What happened. Why is this relevant? I was recently reminded that back in 2020, there was an RfC on the naming conventions at WP:KILLINGS because of a very similar situation involving 35 article move requests over the course of that year, which had resulted in inconsistent article names for that type of article.

We are now six months into 2022, and as of the time of writing in the category Category:2022 mass shootings in the United States are fifteen articles and redirects. Of the fifteen, six use the When, Where, What convention from WP:NCE, and nine do not. Two articles, 2022 Laguna Woods shooting and Warren Clinic shooting have current move requests open. The request at 2022 Laguna Woods shooting is to remove the year and rename the article to Laguna Woods church shooting. The request at Warren Clinic shooting is to add the year and rename the article to 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting because Warren Clinic is only meaningful to Tulsa locals. So like the 2020 situation involving WP:KILLINGS, we have had a number of article creations and move requests that have resulted in inconsistent article names within this topic area. This goes against the policy point WP:CONSIST, which is one of five characteristics that underlay all article naming conventions.

On 2 June, I asked if we needed an RfC to resolve this issue. I now think, especially because there was a remarkably similar RfC in 2020 involving inconsistent article naming for WP:KILLINGS, that the answer is yes, we need an RfC. Is there any editors who would be willing to help draft an RfC to resolve this broader issue of inconsistent article names? Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:03, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I just don't think we need to be this worked up on the consistent "year place event" naming; that should be the default, but should be recognized that some of this mass events, such as school shootings or events near major landmarks eg Manchester Arena bombing, are going to be named after the building or place more than likely from reliable sources. --Masem (t) 17:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

If the title is clearly descriptive & unambiguous, it doesn't need the year. We rarely include all the five Ws in the title, and the rule of three is satisfied by Tulsa hospital shooting. Putting 2022 at the beginning pointlessly lengthens the title & doesn't help anyone. The year will never become part of the common name unless there's another fatal shooting at a Tulsa hospital. No-one will be baffled at that name, and need the year in the title to make them realise what it's about, such as: Oh, the 2022 Tulsa hospital shooting - I hadn't a clue what Tulsa hospital shooting could mean, but now it's preceded by the year I remember it well. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:43, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Is there an established policy on the style for referring to people heading academic units? Is the correct form Professor/Dr X, Director/Deputy Director/Chair {whatever term is used by the institution} of the Y Centre/Institute/Department? Mcljlm (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

See WP:JOBTITLE, it depends on context, but generally these will be lower case if we're not referring to the specific office name. --Masem (t) 17:45, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Does that mean "Professor X, Director of the Y Centre" is incorrect? Mcljlm (talk) 18:41, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

"Professor" and "Dr." are titles so should be capitalised just as "Ms." and "Mr." are capitalised, but the other examples you give are simply job positions, not titles, so shouldn't not be capitalised any more than we would capitalise "bus driver" or "gardener". These are simply the rules of English; nothing specific to Wikipedia. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:55, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Here are a few examples from UK and US universities where director is capitalised, indicating that in at least some cases it should be regarded as a title:

"Margaret Connolly is ... Director of the St Andrews Institute"¹

"Professor Hanna ... is currently Director of"²

"Nigel Gilbert CBE ... is Director of the Centre for ... and Director of the University’s Institute of"³

"Professor Catherine Clarke is Director of the Centre for"⁴

"Jack P. Shonkoff is ... Director of the university-wide Center on"⁵

"Robert Berkhofer ... is also currently Deputy Director of the Medieval Institute."⁶

"Dennis Frenchman ... is Director of the Center⁷

"Dr. Banks is Director of the Interdisciplinary Center"⁸

"David C. Barker is ... Director of the Center"⁹ Mcljlm (talk) 03:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

That just shows that ignorant marketing people (who for some reason think that having capital letters makes the holder of the position look more important) have taken over much communication from universities that should know better. Phil Bridger (talk) 07:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

The pages from which I've quoted Phil Bridger appear to be for general information rather than as press releases. Mcljlm (talk) 00:49, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

You're talking about two different types of titles here. Honorifics (Dr., Professor) that go before a person's name are always capitalised, but also generally used sparingly in articles per MOS:HONORIFIC. But I think Mcljlm is right that it's much less clear what we should do about these types of job titles. MOS:JOBTITLES says to capitalise it if it's used as as specific, unmodified, formal title (Jane Smith is Professor of English at the University of Oxbridge) but not in running text (Jane Smith is a professor in the English department at the University of Oxbridge). That's usually followed with professorships but where the title is "director" or "chair" it seems much less consistent. I'd lean towards not capitalising (Jane Smith is the director of the Centre for English Studies at the University of Oxbridge) because I don't think it is a "formal title for a specific entity" in the same way that professorial titles are, but I'm no MOS expert... – Joe (talk) 06:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

aceshowbiz.com is blacklisted, yet:

• https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=index.php?search=%22Ace+Showbiz%22
• https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=index.php?search=%22AceShowbiz%22

.... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 20:20, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Is that a matter relevant to a page that is used to discuss already proposed policies and guidelines and to discuss changes to existing policies and guidelines? M Imtiaz (talk · contribs) 21:03, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Most of 0mtwb9gd5wx's posts to the village pumps are like this, one or two links or a bit of wikicode followed by less than 5 words of explanation if you're lucky. 3 4 5 6. These posts are nearly always followed by a load of people asking "what's the question?" "what are you proposing?"/"Why are you proposing this?" "Is this in the right place?" etc which never get any response 7 8 9 10. I'm not sure what they're asking here or why it's on the policy page and I don't think it's a good use of time putting the effort in to try to figure it out. If they're going to ask other people to spend their time helping them they could at the least spend the time to write a complete and coherent sentence that clearly explains what the problem/suggestion is. 192.76.8.78 (talk) 13:39, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

There is a tagging dispute currently at DRN in which a {{notability}} tag was applied to an article after an AFD was closed as No Consensus. (I will not mediate any tagging dispute, because I think that the purpose of dispute resolution should be to improve the article, but that is not the point.) The editors appear to be "dug in" on both sides, with some saying that the No Consensus close meant that there are questions about the notability of the subject, and some saying that the No Consensus close meant that there was not a consensus to delete the article. I think that the issue is really a policy question, which is whether No Consensus at AFD is a reason for tagging the article. Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:59, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

No Consensus means that there was not a consensus to delete the article. Since the only real point of a notability tag is to stimulate an Afd, & there shouldn't be another right now, it should be removed. Johnbod (talk) 04:01, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I have to disagree, the fact that that it was no-consensus clearly means there are doubts that it is notable (assuming that's why an article was at risk of deletion). So its ongoing inclusion makes sense until more sources are added. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:54, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Precisely. The purpose of tagging articles is to encourage people to fix potential issues. An AfD closing as 'no consensus' is clear evidence that a significant proportion of people think there are issues. The fix is to improve the article, not pretend there isn't a problem. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:18, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

How do you fix notability, which is supposed to be unrelated to the current state of the article, by editing the article? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I consider the tag to be an appeal for editors to demonstrate notability in the article sourcing, rather than a proclamation that the subject is not notable. If the latter was the case, there would be no reason for the tag since the tagger could instead just PROD or AfD it. JoelleJay (talk) 16:50, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Assuming there was a discussion prior to the AfD, querying notability, then that would have been the time to tag, not after gng was discussed in an AfD. The discussion can continue with a view to resolution without the tag. Selfstudier (talk) 12:32, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I always find a post-AfD notability tag pointy. AfD is where we debate notability. If you still think it's not notable, you can initiate a DRV or renominate it at some point. Otherwise, what, are we supposed to have articles tagged forever? (I supported deletion btw). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Continued presence of notability tag can be 3 things:

1. An impetus to get the article improved
2. A visible indicator that there is an unresolved question/dispute over wp:notability
3. A precursor to AFD.

After a no-consensus AFD, with #3 temporarily off the table, you still have #1 & #2. IMO a recent no-consensus AFD should not preclude notability tagging. On #1, while in the ethereal sense notability relates to the topic/title, in reality it can be improved by including more (suitable) sources. Adding such sources (or failure to be able to do so after an effort) is also a way to resolve #2. North8000 (talk) 13:49, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Additional note: The language right at Template:Notability make clear that the tag can be removed if you are certain that enough in-depth, independent sources have been published about the subject to overcome any notability issues and that The template must not be re-added. In other words, once someone feels notability has been addressed, the notability tag is done. The next step, if you don't think they've been addressed, is to AfD, request merge, etc. This is in line with my understanding of what this tag is for. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:15, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Those template notes sound like good guidance for most situations but probably not for when there is a dispute. Because basically says that if one person says it's not needed and takes it off, it can't be put back. North8000 (talk) 14:33, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's what it says, and that's the way it should be. We shouldn't be having disputes over notability tags, and it's built into the documentation of the tag. The dispute is over notability, and one side of that dispute has a way to escalate: merge, afd, etc. Insisting on tagging because you didn't get your way isn't ok. Like it or not "no consensus" defaults to keep; if you still don't think it's notable, you can renominate, go to DRV, or find something else to do (like improving the article, removing low quality sources, removing unsourced/promotional content, stubifying if necessary, etc.). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:58, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Many good & valid points there but I still stick with my view on categorical exclusion of the tag as outlined above. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

• I advocate for even more use of {{Notability}} for articles that are still sitting in the WP:NPP queue. But I think that as soon as an article is nominated for deletion, the tag becomes pointless. I usually remove this tag as soon as an article gets nominated for deletion. I don't wait for the AfD result. Post-AfD, if the close was no consensus, {{More citations needed}} may be more appropriate, notability discussion can continue in the talk page, or a second AfD nomination can be done. MarioGom (talk) 18:54, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

  "More citations needed" would not be more appropriate. The purpose of this tag is described as the following: This template indicates that the article needs additional inline citations. This is not the issue with the article - the article does not make statements that require additional inline citations. The disputed article discusses a subject which may not be notable enough to be included on Wikipedia. Those are two different issues. BeŻet (talk) 09:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

• The template should not be restored once it is removed. As Rhododendrites points out, improvement of the article is never an option, as notability is not affected by referencing or the state of the article. The template must not be re-added. Doing so is disruptive and a block should be considered. Our means of resolving notability issues is AfD, and that should be considered final. The use of this tag to obstruct an article is deplored. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:17, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

  I have a proposal for change here: replacing the link to Help:Maintenance template removal with Template:Notability#Removing this tag Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:27, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

  That doesn't seem necessary, as the help page already has a section about notability tags. The issue is, the help page straight up mischaracterizes the template. The template doesn't say, and doesn't require, adding citations to reliable sources (because notability doesn't require adding citations). All you have to do is read Wikipedia:Notability and Template:Notability to see that perspective doesn't follow from anything else. The template is an expression of doubt that such sources exist. To overcome it, you have to feel sufficiently confident they exist. Ideally, yes, you add them to the article, but we have other templates for insufficient citations ({{Refimprove}}, etc.). If you think the current citations are sufficient, you can just remove the tag. In a typical situation, though, you need to be careful when you do that, because the person who doesn't think it's notable can't restore the tags and has no other option but to escalate. We have a formal process for that. (Of course that's a typical case rather than someone making a point by adding it after an AfD was closed instead of following standard procedure for contesting a close or renominating). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:56, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

• I closed the DRN case about the tagging dispute that prompted this inquiry. I was probably too polite in closing the dispute, and not sufficiently sarcastic, because I am in general disgusted by tagging disputes. Thank you for your comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
• If an article is sent to AFD on notability grounds and survives the discussion, it should not continue to be tagged for notability. The AFD settles the notability issue. It makes no difference that the close was no consensus. A no consensus defaults to keep and means a substantial number of participants agreed it was, in fact, notable and presented rationales for that acceptable to the closer (if the keep rationales were not acceptable the close cannot possibly be no consensus). Those who disagree don't get to put a permanent "badge of shame" on the article. If you think the closer was in error then DRV is the correct route. If you think the participants were in error, then a subsequent renomination is possible. SpinningSpark 14:47, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

  SpinningSpark's summary makes sense but is dependent on "a substantial number of participants", which seems a long way from where AfD is these days, with substantial numbers of cases rattling around for multiple relists with little to no participation. AllyD (talk) 16:00, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

  But another common reason for NC is the assertions that sources must exist for one reason or another but that they would be hard to find. This doesn't actually establish notability, it establishes a presumption of notability that can still be rebutted if it's actually determined those sources do not exist. A no-consensus close can also happen despite weak keep arguments if a large enough numerical majority develops. Finally, guidelines on notability can change, e.g. WP:NSPORTS2022, which should absolutely permit tagging of articles that no longer meet presumption of GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 16:45, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

• I largely agree with Spinning Spark. The badge of shame isn't helpful in general. If it's survived AfD, it's probably not among our most pressing articles wrt notability. Hobit (talk) 15:33, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

There is continual problems and confusion over the use of WP:NCHESS at Afd and in the used for justification for reams of badly sources chess bios. As far as a I know it is not policy, except it seems to be continually used as though it is policy, for example at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander Bagrationi (chess). scope_creep^Talk 19:26, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

• It doesn't supersede WP:GNG, which it clearly states, so it's a benchmark for likely notability. Though I see that discussion has devolved into arguing its compatibility to NSPORT, which is a contentious SNG that divides the community. Meeting WP:GNG should always be the goal because outside narrow exceptions GNG must be eventually met. NPROF with looser/different standards and NCORP with stricter standards would be examples of actually deviating from GNG.Slywriter (talk) 19:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
• The key to understanding how our various Subject Notability Guidelines (SNGs) and our General Notability Guideline (GNG) work in tandem is to understand the word “presumed”… it means that if the article topic meets the SNG criteria, it is highly likely that there will be reliable sources to also pass GNG.

  However, this is not guaranteed. It means we give the article a “benefit of the doubt” at AFD… we hesitate, and conduct a thorough search for those presumed sources BEFORE deleting (and ideally before nominating). It does NOT mean we can not delete if it turns out those sources don’t actually exist. Blueboar (talk) 20:15, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

  Well, NCHESS isn't even an SNG, so this is ultimately irrelevant. JoelleJay (talk) 21:31, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

  Though even giving it the credit of a half step below a SNG (for ease of discussion), the key statement from Blueboar is "benefit of doubt". Reading the AfD that benefit of doubt has been questioned and sourcing should be provided as part of a valid keep rationale.Slywriter (talk) 22:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

  As discussed elsewhere, even WP:N isn't a policy. It is a guideline, and WP:GNG is the most commonly used and probably most useful guideline to help us determine what is encyclopedically worthy of attention. It and several WP:SNG's have broad community support and longstanding consensus. In the case of WP:NCHESS, it has not achieved broad community consensus. Probably because it is a niche topic. However, this has been developed by subject matter experts, as to which topics are likely worthy of attention for a specialized encyclopedia, so if the topic meets one of the criteria it seems reasonable to give that some weight. That said, NCHESS subjects itself to GNG, so if for instance the topic fails WP:V or WP:NOTDICTIONARY, it would seem reasonable that these issues would supersede any criteria of NCHESS. 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 02:32, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with everything else you said, but I think it's important to note that a big reason we don't just take a project's assessment of notability PPV as the final word is because oftentimes, particularly in niche topics where most articles will be biographies, the project develops lower and lower standards for both acceptable predictive accuracy and what counts as GNG in general. See, for example, all the sports projects whose notability guidelines were pared down or deleted after the WP:NSPORTS2022 consensus. JoelleJay (talk) 18:24, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• It's not a guideline, but it's also not a huge reach. The most inclusive of the components is the claim that GMs are notable. Fewer than 2000 GM titles have ever been issued, and it's one of the most played games in the world. The big problems for sourcing are (a) the GMs who haven't been particularly active in the last 15 years of internet coverage, and (b) most GMs do not live in English-speaking countries (and many of those other countries don't use a Latin script, making searching difficult). This all makes WP:BEFORE challenging. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:06, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
• No it's not a wikipedia policy, it was developed by consensus of participants of WP:CHESS. Still I'm concerned about the recent deletionism trend towards chess players. Alexander Bagrationi is a Grandmaster with several sources to back him up. (Haven't worked out how his name is written in Hebrew yet). MaxBrowne2 (talk) 14:20, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

  @MaxBrowne2 I did search his name in Hebrew (based on how it appeared on one Hebrew site mentioning him), but that returned exclusively mirrors of the original site and a few things on a member of the Bagrationi dynasty. The search in Cyrillic was similarly unfruitful, yielding just the unreliable SPS mentioned in the AfD. JoelleJay (talk) 21:12, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

• WP:CHESS is not the only WikiProject to have its own internal notability guide, and it does state that it is subservient to the GNG. It's not a policy or guideline but it doesn't claim to be.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:14, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
• TLDR it is an WP:ESSAY. WP:SNGs must have project-wide consensus and are never hosted on a WikiProject. This is just some guidance on the Chess project. As an essay, it really means nothing policy-wise, and is subservient to WP:GNG and other relevant policy or guideline criterium. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:57, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
• That seems to be pretty clear. I'm was worried about the fantastic number of chess grandmasters that are being created and referenced to Chessgames database statistics and Chess.com blogs. I think now, I see there is only 2000 of them, so potentially they are all notable, then. I must assume that they will be updated to proper book references at some point in the future, as they GMs, there must be real coverage somewhere. Thanks for the comments. Its opened my mind somewhat to new possibilities and less of a targeting of chess articles and GM article at article review. scope_creep^Talk 10:38, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
• Anyone meeting WP:NCHESS#1 or #2 will certainly be notable: it's just a matter of getting ahold of the sources, which may be in any language and not available on the internet. — Bilorv (talk) 17:28, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

  I searched for Alexander/Aaron Bagrationi in English, cyrillic, and Hebrew and found almost nothing (but did discover he wiki has a very well-developed article on the Bagrationi dynasty). The number of GMs is also skyrocketing, to the point that many (including Bagrationi) have too low an Elo to even enter some elite tournaments. That suggests the designation is not as selective as it once was and that coverage of chess is not so widespread as to justify presumption of notability for each GM. JoelleJay (talk) 17:59, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

  There are always going to be GMs that aren't as good as other GMs, and elite tournaments with strict requirements. Some tournaments wind up being largely for the top 20 people in the world, so I wouldn't say not being able to enter some tournaments is an issue. Rating and tournament success also isn't everything. GMs are more likely to get book deals, more likely to be invited to give lectures, more likely to be invited commentators now that such a thing exists...
  Pre-1980s, when FIDE tweaked the rules a bit, the title did mean more and there were fewer, but it's still pretty elite. There is an unofficial title of "super GM" which, I think, generally refers to people >2700 FIDE. They're going to wind up being more notable because they attain some kind of celebrity. There's plenty of funny business, too. There's a lot of money involved even for those who pursue it on the up-and-up due to the cost of tournaments, coaches, and travel, and lots of stories about tournament directors taking payoffs, tournaments held just to get someone a GM norm (there are legitimate ways to do this, but also not-so-legitimate ways), etc. When there's some sort of national pride on the line, you might imagine government pressure to have the most GMs, have the strongest GMs, have the highest ratings, etc. Relevant. But there's funny business and better/worse players at the top level of basically any sport/game, so I'd be wary of making generalizations. It may be worth some research. Could start with GMs from the English-speaking world to start out, to get a clearer sense of how much coverage GMs get? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 20:43, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I've started a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Interface_administrators#Clarify_the_right_can_be_refused to clarify the process for granting INTADMIN rights. All are invited to participate. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:49, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

The old essay WP:Precedents was extended in Dec. 2021 with a somewhat malformed section that really ought to get fixed and ought to have a few more eyes on what it says. See Wikipedia talk:Precedents if you care. Dicklyon (talk) 03:22, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Should we embed video lectures in articles and if so, under what conditions? Examples are at Propaganda and 24 other articles found by searching one editor's edit summaries; there may be more.

I believe these are all lectures by academics at Dutch universities, published on the "Universiteit van Nederland" YouTube channel with a CC licence, uploaded to Commons and inserted into articles as Commons files. They're for a general audience; the one at Propaganda begins "Are you scared to be brainwashed? Well, the good news is...."
My first thought was that WP:EL principles apply, in that the lectures don't present anything that couldn't be covered in the body of the article, but of course these are now Commons files not external links. Several other issues – editability; managing WP:V; accessibility; selection; appropriateness of the format for Wikipedia – were summarised at the Helpdesk when I asked if we have a direct policy. I'd add WP:NPOV and WP:DUE issues and the risk of closing off collaborative editing. There's an essay Wikipedia is not YouTube, but as the editor PJ Geest points out, that is not a guideline or policy.
Do we need a guideline or can editors here clarify how existing policy and guidelines apply? NebY (talk) 17:59, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I added a starttime to the video about propaganda, so this intro line is now skipped. This line is not representative for the good quality of these videos. --PJ Geest (talk) 18:09, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

There is also another example of similar videos by academics on the article of Cultured meat, which I did not add. One of them is added by User:Hannolans in 2016 and the other one by User:Prototyperspective in 2021, so these videos are there also since a long time and have consensus it appears to me. --PJ Geest (talk) 18:28, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

I think the videos of this source (University of the Netherlands) should be judged on an individual basis. This is also the policy on the Dutch Wikipedia, where we have a lot of experience with videos of this source (almost 400 of this source are used on the Dutch wiki). Only a limited of them are available in English.--PJ Geest (talk) 18:41, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

The article on cultured meat actually...does a pretty good job of illustrating some of the concerns with prominently adding these sorts of long-form 'explainer' videos to Wikipedia.

First, it's something of a dirty secret of Wikipedia that just about anyone (especially anyone logged in with a non-redlinked username and user talk) can add just about anything to an article; as long as it's not obvious vandalism or gibberish, it will tend to 'stick'. Most articles just aren't terribly closely watched, and a lot of Wikipedia content-building is more accretion than editing. The fact that something has been present in an article for a long time is very, very thin evidence to support its inclusion; it should not be mistaken for consensus. Consensus is what evolves after the inclusion of content is challenged.

Second, the two videos in that article are from 2015 and 2017. The very earliest proof-of-concept demonstrations of cultured meat date to 2013, while the first pilot-scale manufacturing didn't take place until 2020. Even if those videos were absolutely correct and up-to-date when they were published, they've missed the majority of the time that lab-grown meat has been a thing. The most recent video was published more than three years before the first cultured "chicken" was served to consumers, in December of 2020.

Third, we consequently have more than 23 minutes of outdated video slapped down right at the top of a Wikipedia article, in a format that cannot plausibly be updated, corrected, or easily modified (save, perhaps, for truncation) by regular Wikipedia editors--and which almost certainly will not be updated or amended by their original creators. We realistically cannot edit: missed word adjust the content, emphasis, tone, or style of this material. There is no reason for this content to sit in the lead section of the article, ahead of nearly all of the other accessible, editable, up-to-date content contributed by Wikipedia editors. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:06, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a lecture by Mark Post, he was the first in the world to present a proof of concept for cultured meat. Seems relevant to me in a encyclopedia. About video editing, that is of course possible and you could also simply add a start and stop time in the template to show only a relevant fragment. --Hannolans (talk) 20:28, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Note that I'm not suggesting that the video should be deleted from Wikimedia Commons, or that it might not be appropriately linked from Wikipedia down in the external links section of the article (for example--keep in mind we have tools like the {{commons}} template for a reason). But a single twenty-minute primary source lecture from the infancy of the field - even by an expert - shouldn't be sitting up at the top of the article, ahead of all the rest of its content. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Not everything any given scientist says, however significant they are in the their field, is of current encyclopedic value. Simply being first to present a proof of concept doesn't mean your lecture from years ago is now the best; at whatever level it's pitched, and there is a very significant chance that as the field has moved beyond proof of concept, it has gone through significant changes.

Editing start and stop times lacks transparency. If I change article text, other editors can see exactly what I've done. Likewise with changing references or images. But who knows what words I've removed or added if I edit "start=10.5|end=671" NebY (talk) 22:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

IMO it's the same as a paper written by someone. Should be evaluated as to whether is an OK sources to use. If so, you can use it as a source for content but it is not content. Nor do you embed an external link into the body of an article.North8000 (talk)`

Video in general exists in a pretty fuzzy space on Wikipedia. A few issues below (bear with me through the bulletpoint setup).

• Even before we get to an article:
  • It's harder to produce a high-quality video than a high-quality photo (generally),
  • there are far fewer freely licensed video than images
  • Commons makes it really hard to upload video if you do find it
• Images already have an odd relationship with the rest of our policies already, with a photo able to say e.g. "this is X species" or "this X building in Y city on Z date" without the need for a citation. Taking that awkward relationship and stretching it out to audio and video makes it even more complicated.
• Our guidelines for video are really poorly developed, and the problems just don't get that much attention.
• Including a video is a binary decision (include or exclude), whereas most of the rest of Wikipedia can be edited.
• While some videos are uncontroversial, such as an illustration of a chemical reaction or a bird singing, and some videos are highly controversial, such as an explainer video that acts as a substitute for the article, there's a ton of gray area and it's hard to draw clear lines.
• So what do we do?
  • Make uploading video easier. This is already something the WMF is going to look into, I think, as part of a bunch of work on Commons they're planning in the near future.
  • Build the Visual Editor equivalent of a video editor, hosted locally, which can make minor changes to existing videos.
  • Hold one or a series of RfCs to actually build out our guidelines on video (fun fact: we don't even have a guideline for video! The best we have is an essay, Wikipedia:Videos, which needs improvement and stronger consensus behind it).
  • Right now, videos are going to have to be decided on a case-by-case basis, and anyone adding videos should understand that there's a non-trivial amount of skepticism about videos that could stand in for an article (by explaining/describing a subject) rather than illustrating an article or otherwise supplementing the text. The amount of gray area here means there will likely be times when it's deemed appropriate, and other times when it's not. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:40, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
• I agree with Rhodo, and in fact discussed this very topic with a WMF staffer a week or so ago. Hopefully, my suggestions will bear fruit. Atsme 💬 📧 00:32, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Content-wise, it is not clear why embedding video (or audio) would be different from embedding a photo or embedding text, as in a block quote from a book or from published conference proceedings or anywhere else. The same guidelines and policies should apply, including topicality, notability, brevity etc. Technically, there are distinct issues with embedding media such as video, but unless I am mistaken, these are not the main concern of the OP. 65.254.10.26 (talk) 00:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't thinking about technical issues, true, probably because I don't know enough about them. Would you like to expand on that? NebY (talk) 11:10, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Storage maybe one concern, depending on the embedding mechanism. The allowable sizes of the embedding window may need to be discussed, which impacts optimal/allowable video resolution. There are also videofile format issues, and related to that, browser compatibility. Finally there are accessibility concerns. Even though these are normally a content issue, embedding video may also involve adding a transcript for screen readers or a separate narration track if one exists, etc. All of which may have a technical component. 98.7.221.81 (talk) 13:10, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I do not support including content I cannot just glance at to assess its claims and that cannot be searched or scanned by edit filters. JoelleJay (talk) 00:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

To expand: if someone adds or replaces an image you can just look at it to see whether it raises any obvious red flags. With video, even if it's clearly an appropriate topic patrolling editors must actually watch the whole thing to make sure it doesn't violate any PAGs. Someone could "update" a 7 minutes 50 second video with one that has otherwise identical specs but inserts some propaganda or gore or whatever between 7:29 and 7:30, and it would be much harder for anyone to find out than just linking to a shady website. JoelleJay (talk) 01:05, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for interposing. The concerns are valid, but I don't know if they are sufficient in denying embedded video content. The meaning of a (text) block quote can change by surgically altering just one word, or by replacing punctuation, and edit filters would be none the wiser. It is also unlikely that editing embedded video would escape notice, unless one has full access to the source, in which case these concerns apply to any content, not just video. And I think any such editing would be obvious in the case of Commons media. It is true that patrolling editors should watch the entire thing. That is just the nature of the beast. The other option is restricting rich media, which may have semantic as well as presentation repercussions. 98.7.221.81 (talk) 12:47, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

But it is much, much easier for editors to actually check text for changes than it is to scroll through an entire video. And people wouldn't have to edit the embedded video itself, they would just need to upload a seemingly-identical one to commons and then replace the existing video. How many page watchers would even notice a file identifier had changed if it was disguised with other minor edits? JoelleJay (talk) 16:50, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

It's also possible to overwrite a file so that the filename doesn't change and the improved versions used wherever the old one was. I see better quality uploads, maps with clearer colouring, improved cropping etc - sometimes edit wars.. NebY (talk) 17:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

About the cultured meat video: there exists also a more recent video by the same scientist from 2020: c:File:Would_you_eat_lab-grown_meat.webm, so if you change the video it is not outdated anymore. --PJ Geest (talk) 08:59, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

This is a talk titled "Would you eat lab-grown meat", which begins and ends with University of the Netherlands branding. I haven't watched it all; I dipped in and heard (of meat) "It's a culture. It's power, fire, masculinity, death, supremacy over another species, all these kind of connotations."(at 9:38+) Closing words include "So my vision for the future and hopefully for those 20 years is actually a very very rmantic and a really really conservative one." Placng this talk as a part of a Wikipedia article would breach WP:NPOV, yet you say that "on the Dutch Wikipedia, where we have a lot of experience with videos of this source (almost 400 of this source are used on the Dutch wiki)" Does Dutch Wikipedia have a different WP:NPOV policy and how can you say that almost 400 from this source are used, as opposed to being available as Commons files? NebY (talk) 09:33, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

I see you have notified two editors of this discussion as "I noted you contributed to University of the Netherlands videos on Commons." 1112. To ensure you do not breach our rules on canvassing by being too selective, please would you also notify editors who have engaged with you on your own or article talk pages concerning such videos and editors who have reverted your additions of them to articles. NebY (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

PJ Geest, that's still highlighting a problem with prominently-placing long-form video content at the top of our articles. NebY has identified some pretty conspicuous issues with the video's tone and neutrality. It really illustrates the issue that I mentioned to you on the Help Desk--just because someone is a scientist, professor, or other subject matter expert, it doens't mean that we should automatically presume that anything they publish will be neutral, or that their individual viewpoint deserves a lot of WP:WEIGHT. Mark Post is certainly an expert in the field, but he's also someone who has significant vested interests. His academic and industrial careers are built on this particular technology (he's the co-founder of Mosa Meat). It's questionable whether we should be using Wikipedia to amplify Post's point-of-view at all, let alone whether we should prominently place it above Wikipedia's own. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

These videos are inappropriate in the lead section and at a minimum moved into the body. They are too long, too subjective, too "branded". It's a distraction. Really it belongs in the external links section and/or cited. -- GreenC 04:13, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Another option is reduce the videos to 2 minutes of essence so as not to send readers off somewhere for 25 minutes right at that lead. Video is a powerful attention grabber. These videos in the lead are drawing readers away from the article. It's not like a hyperlink, video is different, it is pesticide of human attention. Helpful in small doses but deadly in larger. -- GreenC 04:26, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

• Something makes me thing we already had a long RfC on "should articles contain long videos" - with a major concern being that they can't be easily edited. Anyone got a link? — xaosflux ^Talk 14:10, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Are you thinking Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis RfC? There's also WP:NOTYOUTUBE. —Cryptic 14:32, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

    @Cryptic thanks, it was that Osmosis one - seems like this is basically the same issue. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:40, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

    Some of the example articles seem in MEDRS scope too - Allergy and Anorexia Nervosa, maybe also Antibiotic#History (File:Why won’t antibiotics cure us anymore.webm); Noise-induced hearing loss (File:How are hair dryers and headphones killing your ears.webm); maybe even Environmental health#Concerns (File:How is our sick planet making us sick.webm) NebY (talk) 15:57, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

  • There was also this RfC about full-length films in articles, which may be tangential because it's kind of specific. Wow, that was six years ago -- doesn't feel like it. A pervasive issue with that RfC was that the major examples (the articles where the disputes arose from) were pornographic, which clearly colored some opinions of use of full-length films in general. Regardless, it's a very specific "long-form video" application. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:41, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

    That one is a bit different, those are articles about a film, that is public domain, and the entire file was embedded. There would be no need to "edit" it etc, as it was the factual subject. — xaosflux ^Talk 20:15, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

  • There have also been several discussions of Wikipedia:simpleshow, like this RfC at the abortion article. There are many flavors of explainer video, clearly. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
• I suspect the path of least resistance right now, other than to say broadly "case-by-case", would be to link to explainer videos on Commons via the external links section by default, including a disclaimer about potential issues with explainer videos. Of course, we may get (or already have) many videos on a single topic, and consensus should determine which, if any, to include. I'm picturing something like "Wikimedia Commons has explainer videos available for this topic. Click here for more information about explainer videos on Wikipedia" followed by links on the next line. The latter part would link to a section of Wikipedia:Videos that explains e.g. these are not intended as substitutes for the article, may be out of date, and may contain opinions or other content which do not meet Wikipedia's standards for encyclopedic content. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:55, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

  That's such a straightforward and undemanding approach, unlike a grim case-by-case process, and saves us from getting bogged down arguing whether WP:EL can be circumvented by copying from YouTube to Commons. NebY (talk) 12:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

• As the primary author of WP:NOTYOUTUBE, of course I think that essay is worth reading and relevant. Perhaps the key thing is that Wikipedia is collaboratively edited by volunteers and these videos just are not and cannot be (crude truncation aside). While some are approximately relevant to the article they are effectively articles in video form and as such quite a different beast to deciding to include a photo or an illustration. They contain information our readers would expect us to have fact checked, cited and corrected if they were in the body text, but we can't do any of that. We've ended up embedding them because they have a free licence, but if they weren't free, would we have an external link to them? Maybe for some. If their content passes WP:EL then link, but please don't embed. -- Colin°^Talk 17:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

  Colin, WP:NOTYOUTUBE really helped me think about this before coming here, so thank you! I'd quibble a little with "We've ended up embedding them because they have a free licence", in that PJ Geest framed it more as a deliberate direction of travel: "extra argument for keeping the videos is that commercial websites like YouTube become more and more attractive and users increasingly expect answers to their search queries in rich content (e.g., image, video, and audio formats), see following post What does the world need from us now? External Trends to Watch. So Wikipedia cannot stay behind, it should stay attractive.".13 NebY (talk) 13:04, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

  • NebY, if you look at the Wikimedia page it also says people are increasingly searching by voice, and expecting their smart device to read out the answer. My device frequently answers questions with "According to Wikipedia...." So video is hopeless for that since the content is not searchable by the smart engine nor can it be read out. Remember that Wikimedia are interested in all educational free content, not just Wikipedia. I would love Wikipedia to have more images and short videos but if it doesn't remain a site created and edited by anyone, then it no longer is Wikipedia. This is externally produced lecture content, not encyclopaedia articles with links and citations. It really isn't Wikipedia, hence the essay name. I think some people think Wikipedia is an educational information website, and that's not what Wikipedia is at all. It is a collaboratively edited free content hyperlinked encyclopaedia. -- Colin°^Talk 14:39, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

    • Colin I do agree with you! I only wanted to say that some haven't so much drifted into this because the videos happen to be available; they see embedding videos as the way to go for en.wiki, so upload a file like File:How can I eat my way to a better world.webm ("your choices as a consumer matter, but not just the choice of which product you buy but also the place you buy it and even the bank that facilitates the transaction" from YouTube to Commons, then embed it at the top of Sustainable seafood. That's using Wikipedia's technical capabilities to do something that's not within Wikipedia's purpose and is inimical to collaborative editing, as well as using Wikipedia as a platform. NebY (talk) 17:17, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

• I agree with everyone else above about the problems with these videos (can't be edited, can't inline cite, can't be updated, undue/promo, etc). Embedding videos like this shouldn't be done. Not even sure if they're good for ELs, maybe on a case by case. Levivich 18:16, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I have used videos in articles to demonstrate movement in animals, and certain behaviors, etc. Imagine having a quote on video by a highly notable person that is now deceased vs the archaic flatness of text. Written descriptions fall short of actually seeing it on video. I think perhaps a size limit is doable, but concern over noncompliance with NPOV is a bit of a ^stretch. We include biased quotations cited to RS that are biased, but whether or not it's presented in a dispassionate tone is debatable. Then again, if the article is referring to a passionate delivery, we can actually see it in a video. Sorry, but I don't find any of the oppose arguments convincing. Videos can be removed or replaced, and other videos can be added for counter balance. I think it's time WP caught up to the technology that has taken the internet by storm. Atsme 💬 📧 15:03, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Atsme I think there is a big difference between something like Atsme said, "I have used videos..." being a video of you saying that as compared to a video of you giving a speech about videos. In the former, besides being short it is just evidence of the thing being reported - in the later it is presentation of your original research. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:10, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@xaosflux oh my – have I misinterpreted this entire discussion? I thought it was about uploading & using video lectures by notable experts/academics/professionals for use in relative articles, but that would not include a COI video such as a WP editor lecturing about a company or university they work for that is the subject of the article. The latter would surely be a no-no. OTH, if it is a BLP about that editor, and there are uninvolved editors overseeing that BLP, such a video would be appropriate. My apologies if I have completely misconstrued what is being proposed. Feel free to strike my comments but please add my favorite emoji at the end to indicate my state of mind. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Atsme 💬 📧 15:53, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@Atsme I think it is somewhere between - these are long-form lectures from someone talking about the subject. I'm not sure if it is limited to also judging how much that specific presenation is considered reliable or not. Seems like these aren't quite being used as a "reference" but as "content" - but it isn't content that is demonstrative of what our editors said. If there was an article about "Topic" or "Person" and there was a clip of a notable researcher of that topic saying something that was cited by editors or video proof/demonstration of something I don't think there is much worry on those.

I see the main point of contention here trying to decide if very high prominence in articles should be given to an editor choosing to include a Here is a video presentation by purported expert on this topic talking about it or not. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:04, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I think videos like you describe are totally appropriate. A short clip of the subject of the article (whether a person, animal, mechanism, natural phenomenon, etc.) is the perfect use for embedded video. A third party, whether an "expert" in the field or a Wikipedian, basically doing a video version of the article is much more appropriate as an external link than an embedded item. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 16:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

I have been participating in AfDs more, and have seen things that I feel need to be addressed. Three AfDs have spurred me to propose new reforms to this community process:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marina Ovsyannikova - I !voted to delete and redirect the article in question. If you read the AfD, you will see that there are many "keep" !votes, many of them using arguments we should avoid using in deletion discussions, mainly based on personal point of view. Those !votes all came from IPs and accounts whose only purpose was to "save" the subjects article. Ultimately, the article was kept, even though it wasn't because of the SPAs. As someone who rarely gets over the past, I felt that things had to change in AfDs.

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Let me solo her1 - While patrolling recent changes, I came across this article again, which had been nominated for deletion by a new user. I commented on the AfD because I got suspicious of the fact that newly registered users were able to find a Wikipedia process that I feel can only be found by new accounts when they are pointed to them. Haleth wrote an amazing "keep" opinion, mentioned that they share my concerns about the nominator potentially being a single-purpose account, and said,

  PS: On a side note, why do we even allow random editors below autoconfirmed or extended confirmed status the capability to conduct drive-by AfD nominations, especially when this is a topic area is notorious for rampant bad faith actions from block evading sockpuppets?

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victoria Asher - I did not participate in this one, but it reinforces why I think the AfD process should be reformed. In fact, Deepfriedokra protected the page due to the problems I have addressed.

I am thankful that us experienced Wikipedians know about the policies and guidelines, and resist ineffective outside pressure. As ScottishFinnishRadish said when an IP confronted him about his nomination of Victoria Asher for deletion,

melecie covered the rest pretty well. My actions have nothing to do with Asher, and everything to do with how we ascertain notability on Wikipedia.

Now, for my actual reforms:

• !votes that are based on certain arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, such as arguments without arguments and personal point of view, can and should be "thrown out" (removed), which should be followed with a message to the !voter explaining why. We should make a warning template for that purpose.

• !votes from identified single-purpose accounts/IPs should be removed because they will never affect consensus and constitute disruptive editing (this is the reason DFO gave to protect Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victoria Asher). I know that there are some AfDs that have gotten public attention, so people come to the discussion and push their POVs, a form of advocacy. I also think this constitutes meatpuppetry because it involves recruiting people for disruptive purposes. Meatpuppetry is not allowed because it is a form of sockpuppetry. To prevent bad-faith editors from trying to alter consensus, all AfDs should be pending changes protected (preferably by a bot), allowing IPs and newly registered users to participate while their !vote is reviewed. A pending changes reviewer will be able to take a look at the user's activities on WP and decide if the !vote should be accepted or "rejected".

Let me know if you have other ideas dedicated to stopping bad faith editing on Articles for Deletion. --LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop and My Little Pony Fan) 22:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I have not participated at AfD in a long time. Too contentious. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay. PackMecEng (talk) 22:32, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Concern .....simply not the place for content editors Moxy- 19:49, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I think the percentage of AfDs that have these issues is pretty small, and generally closers are more than willing to discount obvious meat and sock violations. It's also not too difficult to get protection if it's needed.

The only issue I had with how the Asher AfD went was that someone restored a number of obvious meat !votes I had removed after the page was semi'd. Even that didn't effect the outcome, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Pinging Graeme Bartlett, as I mentioned them. 14 and 15 are the removal and restoration. Since AfDs are not votes, but discussions on how policy applies, being unfamiliar enough that you don't know where to contribute seems like it should be disqualifying. There should be a fair amount of leeway for removing non-constructive obvious meat-puppet contributions from discussions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:51, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Votes should not be removed because they are poorly formatted or obviously due to canvassing. There is a danger that deleting comments is removing valid votes, and mainly because the remover disagrees. Someone who does not like the comments should instead add a comment about them. Later the closer should consider what they say. If their argument is valid, then it should be considered. And if out of policy then it can be ignored. We have two important things here: an encyclopedia that we are trying to build, and people who want something. The purpose is not to serve the bureaucracy. In the case of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Victoria_Asher the page should not have been semi protected, as it resulted in votes going on the talk page, making it even more difficult for the closer, than if they had gone on the main page. And once someone put a vote in the wrong place, others followed the wrong example. Most of these votes are not bad faith and are not actually disruptive if they are voting to keep. Disruptive votes from actual socks or trouble makes are much more likely to be delete votes. You are right be be suspicious of delete nominations from a SPA. But they can be speedily kept if obviously bad faith. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:27, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Most of these votes are not bad faith and are not actually disruptive if they are voting to keep. Disruptive votes from actual socks or trouble makes are much more likely to be delete votes. You are right be be suspicious of delete nominations from a SPA.

?? I see way more SPA keep !votes trying to promote non-notable subjects than I see !votes for delete driven by off-wiki disputes. Most of those keeps are from COI/UPE/agenda-based accounts and are inherently disruptive. JoelleJay (talk) 06:07, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

@Graeme Bartlett: I hope you are having a good day and I apologize for not replying sooner. Why do you think that votes from people who came to an AfD with an agenda are good faith? Even though ignorance of the law may excuse when dealing with newcomers, bad faith is evident if they come with an agenda. I don't think that single-purpose editors will follow Wikipedia rules (this is why I do not like them). If you look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marina Ovsyannikova, there is a single-purpose account who !voted keep, HansClumsy. That account was blocked for making disruptive edits, such as removing the AfD tag of the article, assuming bad faith from other editors, and bothering an admin, Ponyo, over the matter. Their talk page contains proof that canvassed SPAs may have more bad-faith intentions than just attempting to alter the result of an AfD. This AfD had lots of people who came with the intent of having it kept, so it means that it must have been shared online. This makes HansClumsy and the other SPAs and IPs who came to the discussion guilty of a form of sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry. However, I don't think blocking them for meatpuppetry would do much because it's not likely that they would come back after fulfilling their purpose. (pinging ScottishFinnishRadish as they pinged Graeme to the discussion) LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop and My Little Pony Fan) 13:51, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Isn't it more likely that the many editors who came to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marina Ovsyannikova saw her action in the main headlines of most Western news outlets, came to Wikipedia to see if there was any further information about her, and saw that her article was nominated for deletion? "It means that it must have been shared online" and the subsequent accusations of sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry are themselves assumptions of bad faith. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:55, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

These kinds of proposals come up fairly frequently, but fail to find consensus for a change. That's not to say you can't try again, but you may want to dig through the various village pump and AfD archives to see where they went wrong. I agree that canvassing and meat puppetry are nontrivial problems for AfD. Ideally, closers don't give them much weight, but that's not actually consistent practice. Ultimately, even though it's a !vote, few closers are willing to close against the majority (and go through the inevitable challenges, allegations of supervoting, and DRVs). Only when abuse is egregious and obvious, or when comments are way off the mark, is it uncontroversial to discount them. But it's not clear what a better system would be. We could semi-protect AfDs (or even ECP) by default, but what about new users who bring lots of good sources to the debate -- ok to relegate them to the talk page? What about article creators who are not yet autoconfirmed or extended confirmed? How would we create an exception to them? Canvassing, meat puppetry, etc. can be really hard to prove, so it would also be hard to build rules around degree of certainty... — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 00:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

• It's really the job of the closer to disregard weak votes, but the closer should not be mandated to do certain things because it doesn't leave room for compelling arguments and other context specific things. If you feel the closer didn't do the right thing ask them about it, and if they don't give a reasonable reply, see WP:DRV. -- GreenC 00:24, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
• There was just a similar issue at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coco Bandicoot. Half of the redirect votes were either just WP:PERNOM or WP:JUSTAVOTE. Then when I brought up new sourcing, most of those still in favor of a redirect didn't actually give a reason for their stance, while another editor voted keep based on that sourcing. Hence, I think this discussion should have at least been relisted. I don't think consensus was clear based on the new sourcing I provided. MoonJet (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
• Feel free to take any of these to WP:DELREV. That's what it's for. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 04:19, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
• Number 2 is a non-starter, IMO. When we say Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, we really mean it. If someone without an account comes across an article with an AfD banner at the top and follows the link to the discussion, they should be welcome to engage in that discussion (though if their arguments are not compatible with policy, they should be disregarded).
  Number 1 is a recipe for strife. It sounds reasonable on the surface, but the big question is who decides which arguments to strike as non-policy-based? And what happens when editors inevitably disagree about it? Are we going to have sub-discussions to form consensus about whether a particular comment should be struck? That sounds like a nightmarish fractal of infinite bureaucracy. As others have said, it's up to the closer to judge the strength and policy-compliance of each argument. Colin M (talk) 17:43, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Colin M: I understand your concerns. I think I should clarify what I said in my reforms (pinging Rhododendrites as they expressed a similar concern). I suggested that AfDs should be given pending changes protection in order to allow IPs and newly registered users to participate. After reading my statement again, I think it could be interpreted as shutting them out of the process.

  To answer the big question, experienced users, preferably people active in AfDs, should be able to decide which arguments are non-policy-based. However, some arguments that can be struck out are blatantly non compliant with policy. Anyone with some experience will be able to cross those out. For example, if a slew of newly registered users came to an AfD of a non-notable band in order to !vote "keep" with reasons along the lines of WP:ILIKEIT, anyone can strike out their votes because they obviously do not use any policies/guidelines and they could have found the AfD because they were told to (canvassing/meatpuppetry). I don't believe that any reasonable editor would disagree with restoring those kinds of !votes, but like you said, the closer will be the ultimate judge of deciding which !votes get counted.

  Thank you for participating in this discussion. LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop and My Little Pony Fan) 21:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks for clarifying. I misinterpreted "!votes from identified single-purpose accounts/IPs should be removed" as (single-purpose accounts)/(IPs), rather than single-purpose (accounts/IPs). Still, I disagree with using PCP in this way for the same reason I disagree with reform #1. Colin M (talk) 16:22, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• Perhaps the !votes of editors who support redirecting and deletion at the same time - which may not be technically possible and is certainly not compliant with policy - should be "thrown out" (removed), which should be followed with a message to the !voter explaining why. That seems reasonable. Newimpartial (talk) 18:11, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

  It's merge and delete that are incompatible without effort (see WP:MAD), not redirect and delete, but they should obviously be done in the reverse order. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:36, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

  In what situation is "delete and redirect" more compliant with policy than "merge and redirect"? Newimpartial (talk) 22:13, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

  When there's no mergeable content. This happens often when the existing content is riddled with copyright infringements, or isn't sourceable. Or the best target for the redirect is unrelated to the subject except for having a similar name. Reyk _YO! 22:27, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

  Actually, COPYVIO was the one limit case where I already saw the potential benefit of a page delete before recreating the page as a redirect. And I suppose where the best redirect target isn't related to the content at AfD, that might also mandate a page delete in some cases.

  But where content "isn't sourceable" (the much more common scenario), what problem is there in retaining it in the page history? I get that "merge and redirect" doesn't apply where there is literally no content to merge, but that doesn't mandate a "delete" (which always means a page delete, no?). Newimpartial (talk) 12:55, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  My comment was simply to point out that deleting and redirecting does not violate any policy, if that is the outcome of a discussion. Deleting and merging does unless a lot of care is taken (per WP:MAD) to avoid a copyright violation. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:38, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  While "delete and redirect" may not necessarily violate policy, there ought to be a good reason for the page history to be deleted (such as COPYVIO, or COI editing, or if the page history concerns a different topic entirely). For the vast majority of AfDs that result in a redirect, the page history should be retained, and any DUE, permissible content should be merged to the redirect target per WP:PRESERVE. Newimpartial (talk) 20:08, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  I think we agree about that issue. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:19, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• AFD as presently constituted does far more harm than good to the project (the presence of bad content being far less of a problem than the absence of good content; after all these years we still have amazingly little good content, and most of what we have grew slowly from bad content). AFD has been a source of massive toxicity for many years. It would be impossible to tally the damage it has caused or to number the editors it has driven away. I myself can only stand a few days in that atmosphere every few years. Unfortunately, a significant amount of that toxicity can be attributed to people using the WP:ATA essay/wishlist as if it were policy. Low-effort !votes and comments based on handwaving invocations of WP:ATA, or (to get to the nub of the problem) that place the onus on the article's creators/defenders rather than the nom, should be given no weight. (For that matter, IMO, deletion arguments not based on the purposes of the encyclopedia should be given very little weight, recognizing that the notability guidelines are merely a means to an end and applying them indiscriminately can do enormous damage.) In any event, this proposal would take things in exactly the wrong direction. -- Visviva (talk) 02:55, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
• Either a sock/meatpuppet vote is clear enough that someone should label it as such, and therefore will be obvious to the closer (it would usually be obvious even without the post) or it's not clear, in which case we risk removing viable !votes. Thus too, blatant ILIKEIT/IDONTLIKEIT votes. Labelling is also better than deletion because it avoids the risk of GF errors, or at least helps get more eyes on doing such. I've never known an AfD get the wrong result by a clear issue with such, and this proposal is not designed for the less than clear examples. There are reasons non-AC users should participate in AfDs, but I grant that the use-cases for a non-AC user needing to nominate an article would also usually make it easy for them to find another editor to request it for them. Nosebagbear (talk) 10:02, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

One idea is wording at the AFD that urges and creates an expectation that arguments should be made based on the guidelines/policies involved in the nomination criteria. For example, if nominated based on notability that arguments be in terms of GNG and/or relevant SNG guideline. And maybe to go further to say that closes take into account only such arguments. North8000 (talk) 16:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• If it were up to me, all XfD discussions would automatically be semi-protected. There is virtually nothing of use that IPs and newbies can offer in such discussions. I realize that some IPs are longstanding contributors, but this will encourage registration in order to better insure that the IPs we deal with are consistently the same editors. BD2412 T 18:25, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  This is absurd. Usually when an XfD is being brigaded/canvassed offsite, those doing so register accounts anyways in an effort to be taken more seriously. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 19:05, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  Semi-protection extends to excluding registered accounts as long as they are less than four days old and have fewer than ten edits. Perhaps we need another intermediate level of protection for a somewhat longer period (figuring that a relisted AfD will run for about two weeks), and requiring somewhat more previous editing. BD2412 T 19:32, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  @BD2412 and Jéské Couriano: Thanks for participating in the discussion. I agree with BD's idea, though I also think that we should allow IPs and newly registered accounts to participate as well. This is why I suggested that pending changes protection be applied to AfDs. Note that I did not say XfDs because AfDs are about articles, so they serve the most interest to the public. Requiring previous experience will help weed out !voters who came for a reason unrelated to Wikipedia maintenance, but how difficult would that be to enforce? LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop and My Little Pony Fan) 21:59, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  CRASHlock actually is not an option here (and if it were I'd stop participating in AfDs altogether). The install used by en.wp limits it to mainspace specifically. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 20:40, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Jéské Couriano: This is not true. Notwithstanding policy considerations, PC may be applied to pages in Wikipedia space (and that includes AfDs), as evidenced by this list. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

• Agree with BD2412 - excellent idea that will prove beneficial in getting more IPs to register. Atsme 💬 📧 13:43, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

A Few Comments

I started one of the discussions about Articles for Deletion in asking about a particular abuse that I see (moving the article to draft space to defeat the AFD). I will also comment on a few of the points in this thread and offer another suggestion.

I strongly disagree with any rule that !votes should be removed or deleted. It is the job of the closer to decide what !votes should be discounted, so that the removal of material before the close is pseudo-closing, which we should not do. Purely disruptive material is of course a special case. It can be redacted as RD3, and so can instead be blanked without redaction. But the original issue was the deletion of stupid !votes, not disruptive material. Leave the stupid stuff on the record. Maybe it should be stricken, but not removed. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

On the one hand, I agree that AFDs should be semi-protected. One editor asks about article creators who are not yet auto-confirmed. Article creators must be auto-confirmed. The rare exception would be an editor who submits a draft that is approved by a reviewer before the editor has four days and ten edits. An admin should confirm them; it won't happen that often. If we do semi-protect AFDs, we should also specify that talk page requests will be ignored. On the other hand, if we do not routinely semi-protect AFDs, we should have a guideline about the occasional semi-protection of AFDs, and it should specify that talk page requests are ignored. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

General Sanctions

There are a few editors who either disrupt AFDs, or inject a toxic atmosphere into AFD discussions. Such editors should be sanctioned. The community has a mixed record about disciplining editors who disrupt the AFD process. I would suggest that we ask the community to impose Community General Sanctions, authorizing expedited administrative action, for editors whose participation in AFDs (whether to Keep or to Delete, or simply to insult other editors) is disruptive. The Manual of Style already has ArbCom sanctions. Deletion is a process that is disrupted often enough that expedited administrative action should be authorized. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

• I think I could support some form of this -- it seems like every couple weeks there is another huge thread on AN/I about someone (or multiple someones) being extremely rude on AfD. Of course, the sanctions themselves would have to be crafted rather carefully. jp×g 07:02, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I absolutely support this as an effective way to reform AfD. LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop and My Little Pony Fan) 20:29, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I can support general sanctions for XfDs in general - not just AfD - and I say this knowing full well I've had previous interactions on XfDs that would have led me to getting sanctions were they in place at that point. To me, the points that need to be addressed are both the rudeness and repeatedly bringing up points that have already been dispensed with by multiple XfD commentors, which often results in rudeness (either from the IDHT user or the frustrated people having to reply to the same points over and over). —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{a little blue Bori} 20:46, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Would you be willing to provide examples of times when the community has failed to protect Wikipedia against future disruption by failing to sanction a particular editor (or set of editors) relating to AfD behavior? I recall there was some ANI thread a few months back regarding the Article Rescue Squadron, but I'm generally not familiar with the history here. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 20:53, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Every ARS thread before the last one. Levivich 01:03, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Oppose. No biting new article creators with awareness notices during the deletion discussion at AFD. Or after deletion of their article.Lurking shadow (talk) 18:01, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support with caveats. No editors with less than X edits and x appearances at AfD should receive GS notice and must be handled through normal administrative channels. I'm not sure what those numbers should be, but the intent would be that only experienced editors should be subject to GS on this topic area. We need to cut down on the bad behavior and bickering between long-standing editors, not give every editor a hammer to wield against passionate newbies.

The following list consists of articles that should either be prodded or taken to AfD, and was produced by reviewing a small number of the articles created by banned sockmaster BlackJack. By reviewing the creations of editors like BlackJack lists this size or longer can be produced every day for years, and this is something that neither AfD nor Prod can handle - and the third option, silently redirecting, is not an option for many of these articles,^a and is opposed by some editors.

The existence of mass produced stubs that fail our notability guidelines is a problem that needs to be resolved to improve Wikipedia, but our current processes cannot handle that problem.

I believe that moving to user space or draft space all articles that do not include any sources that a reasonable editor could believe meets the requirements of WP:GNG would reduce the scale of the problem to one that can be handled through our normal processes, but based on the discussion above such a proposal would be rejected by the community. Instead, I open this discussion to find an alternative; a different process that would allow us to address the problem without overwhelming our existing processes.