This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

There should be biography-specific advice about filling in the fields of an infobox, especially since most biographies include one.– Gilliam (talk) 04:13, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Under heading "Occupation titles" are offered the examples Hirohito was Emperor of Japan; Louis XVI was King of France. At MOS:JOBTITLES is offered the example In 1974 Vice President Ford was sworn in as the 38th president of the United States by Chief Justice Warren Burger. "President of the United States" looks like the name of an office, so I think that a little more discussion belongs in both articles explaining when something that looks like the name of an office should not be treated as such. How would the Ford example be capitalized if we omitted "the 38th"? If that means capitalizing "president", why should "the 38th" matter? Obviously Wikipedia editors have a lot of trouble understanding this rule. Examples abound:

• Nelson Rockefeller: Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller (July 8, 1908 – January 26, 1979) ... served as the 41st Vice President of the United States (1974–1977) under President Gerald Ford, and as the 49th Governor of New York (1959–1973)."
• Dick Celeste: Richard Frank "Dick" Celeste (born November 11, 1937) ... served as the 64th Governor of Ohio from 1983 to 1991.
• Rick Perry: James Richard "Rick" Perry (born March 4, 1950) is ... the 47th Governor of Texas.
• Richard M. Daley: Richard Michael Daley (born April 24, 1942) is a former Mayor of Chicago, Illinois.
• Richard Kleindienst: Richard Gordon Kleindienst (August 5, 1923 – February 3, 2000) was ... a U.S. Attorney General ...

and fewer compliant examples:

• John Lindsay: John Vliet Lindsay (... November 24, 1921 – December 19, 2000) was a ... mayor of New York City ...

— Anomalocaris (talk) 05:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd go for downcasing where the job title isn't directly associated with a person's name. Even then, the boundaries become difficult and cause editors extra decision-making—We spoke with Garbage Collector John Blow about the new vehicles. – really? And seniority is an awkward boundary. "The chief executive officer, Rebecca Schmidt, was unavailable for comment." Why poke our eyes with a row of caps? Chicago MOS and Oxford's New Hart's Rules both favour avoiding unnecessary caps. Tony (talk) 06:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I am in favor of avoiding unnecessary caps... but let's go overboard on that... editors can disagree over whether the caps are necessary or not. To my mind a job title like "President of the United States" or "Governor of New Hampshire" should always be capitalized. Blueboar (talk) 15:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with Blueboar. If you are dealing with the name of a particular position then, as a name, it should be capitalised. The "President of the United States" is a particular position, as opposed to a meeting of presidents that weren't specified. In "Garbage Collector John Blow", it is not the name of a particular or specific job where there is a one-is-to-one between person and position, noting that this might not be initially apparent from a shortened form of the full formal name of a position. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I've always written it fairly simply, with regard to Wikipedia articles. When working on Ukrainian crisis-related articles, as I often did, I would write "Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko", as "Ukrainian president" is not the title, but a description. However, if I simply wrote "President Poroshenko" sans "Ukrainian", president would take capitalisation, as that's a formal style. In other words, I believe that the proper title should always be capitalised, e.g. "President of Ukraine", but that descriptive usages should not be capitalised, e.g. "French prime minister". As a final example, "Alfred Gusenbauer served as Chancellor of Austria", but "Alfred Gusenbauer was the Austrian chancellor". RGloucester — ☎ 01:14, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Tony; sources mostly agree, too, at least up through "the governor of New York". At the president level, it's less certain. At vice president of the United States, the trend in recent decades is toward less capitalization, now being at a tie. So, in general I and sources agree that caps are not necessary. I'm not happy about making the president of the U.S. an exception the general rule, but we might have to live with it, based on the last time something like this came up in RM, iirc. Things like List of Governors of Ohio ought to just be fixed, though, since caps in such contexts are neither necessary nor even particularly common; it's not clear to me why Blueboar and Cinderella157 suggest caps for that; not from guidelines, not from sources, so what is it? Dicklyon (talk) 04:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

As, apparently, we have to live with Q in "the Queen" in class-ridden supplication—come to think of it, the US president is in the guise of the British monarch (compare their relationships to their parliaments at the time). Tony (talk) 07:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Proper names are capitalised. This includes the names of objects, entities and the like and not just the names of people. A name is a discrete identifier and applies to positions. The MOS is ambiguous on this subject otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion and there are expert sources that are not inconsistent with my position. I suggest that there may be some regional basis for variations in usage too. I believe I am saying much the same as RGloucester . The observation I would make is that there is a divided opinion. Avoiding unnecessary caps does not mean not using them when appropriate. The only way to fix this is to determine a style to be used and write it so it is clear and easy to apply and, while not necessarily addressing every conceivable instance nonetheless provides adequate guidance to address most circumstances. I should point out this discussion - Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Proposed change. Cinderella157 (talk) 06:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

"Proper names are capitalised."—Could you please define "proper name"? Tony (talk) 07:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

True, the MOS is ambiguous where it says, "When the correct formal title is treated as a proper name". When is that? That, I presume, is what we need to look to sources to help figure out. If we want to clarify, I'd add that it's hardly ever the case that a correct formal title is itself treated as a proper name. Do you know of any that are, as evidenced by sources? Dicklyon (talk) 03:59, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I refer particularly to the third dot point below (from the MOS) and beg to differ on, "that it's hardly ever the case that a correct formal title is itself treated as a proper name." When you refer to the the position by its formal title, then, it is treated as a proper name. By this, all of the examples indicated as wrong (above) would actually be correct although the MOS ambiguously treats adding the ordinal as different. See Fowler. The '64th Governor of Ohio' or 'List of Governors of Texas' would be written with capitals, where it is the name of the particular position save that it is in the plural form or specifies a particular number in succession. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:44, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Fowler's tome was written in, what, 1923? He (actually his brother, who wrote most of it) was not a professional. Tony (talk) 07:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• When followed by a person's name to form a title, i.e. when they can be considered to have become part of the name: President Nixon, not president Nixon
• When a title is used to refer to a specific and obvious person as a substitute for their name, e.g. the Queen, not the queen, referring to Elizabeth II
• When the correct formal title is treated as a proper name (e.g. King of France; it is correct to write Louis XVI was King of France but Louis XVI was the French king)

@TONY I was indirectly quoting the MOS (immediately above) when I referred to a "proper name". Synonyms for proper include correct or accurate. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters opens with: "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization. Most capitalization is for proper names or for acronyms." At this point, it links proper names to Proper noun. The page also addresses what a proper name is (not very well, I would observe) at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Proper names. If the meaning of a proper name is a matter of conjecture, then this whole page lacks any objective basis and requires a full review to address at least this issue (not something I would necessarily dispute).

In the third dot point (above), King of France is the correct or accurate name but the French king is a variation. Thankyou: in considering your question, I believe I have identified the source of the ambiguity. The words do not accurately describe the intent as indicated by the example. I suggest the intent might better be said as:

Offices, titles, and positions such as president, king, emperor, pope, bishop, abbot ... are capitalized only in the following cases: ... When the correct formal title is used (e.g. King of France; it is correct to write Louis XVI was King of France but Louis XVI was the French king).

Alternatively:

A correct formal title is treated as a proper name and is capitalised .

Fowler was first published in 1926. The CMOS was first published in 1906. Both have been revised since their first publishing and both are recognised as authoritative works. Regarding the provenance of authorship, I would refer to Henry Watson Fowler#Writing partnership, noting, of course, that this is not a reliable source. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I am drawn to recall some work on literacy in vocational education. The gist of the work was that vocational literacy was not just about reading, writing and comprehension in a general sense but there was a vocation specific jargon that educators needed to identify and make explicit. The purpose of a MOS is to make explicit the conventions of style that are not universally held by the domain of users or vary from the conventions that are universally held. For WP, the domain is global. Many conventions of English have variations that differ by region, occupation or discipline of study. For a global domain, few conventions can be assumed to be universally held. A MOS should be comprehensive, easily interpreted and easy to apply across a diversity of situations (content areas) to consistently produce a uniform style. WP applies exacting standards of quality to its encyclopedic material. It is disappointing that the same standards are not applied to the back of house - the how to and why. I believe this to be a barrier to the uptake and retention of new editors, which is compounded by what can easily be perceived as brow beating for not knowing what the unwritten rules are. "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization. Most capitalization is for proper names ... ". This whole page is based on the dubious assertion regarding "most capitalisation" (many derivatives of proper names are consistently capitalised) and the assumption that there is a universal understanding of what is necessary capitalisation and what is a proper name. "Assumption is the mother of disaster..." . Many of these recurrent discussions might be avoided if the WP:MOS made explicit the unwritten rules. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:42, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I mean: a good image is better than a bad one. But what is a "good image" for the subject of a biography? For example in this article at least one image where the subject's face is not hidden by dark sunglasses seems reasonable to me, but not to the anonymous ip. Well, he probably consider himself the owner of the page because is reverting any edit, but this is another problem... Anyway: is there any guideline about what is a "good image" for a biography? It would be useful in these cases. Thanks in advance. -- Basilicofresco (msg) 07:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

What's the consensus (or is there one) on discussing a person's race, ethnicity, and ancestral origins? I've noticed most articles don't; and I'm sure in most articles it's unnecessary and potentially inflammatory; but if there is something interesting about their race or ethnic heritage, is there a consensus on where in the article it should be discussed and how? ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 22:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

That's not exactly true. For example, Italian or German ethnicity is mostly given also if the subject was born before 1860 (formation of Italy) or 1870 (formation of Germany). Alex2006 (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

For living persons, WP:BLPCAT applies. For ancients, we stick to what the historians state as much as possible. The only grey area is the in-betweeners, who were born before the great national movements in Europe and the varying empires and dissolved empires. In general, if the person while still alive self-identified as a specific group, we should generally use their own view of themselves. If they did not specify the group they considered themselves a part of, then we can use what current reliable sources state. Race is a more delicate matter, and where no self-identification exists, we still must tread carefully due to modern concerns about categorizing people by race. For "ancestral origins" I suggest we not use them as a general feature of biographies, as too often the genealogical sources are weak at best, and outright frauds in too many cases. IMO of course. Collect (talk) 15:09, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I've copied over a point made by IP: Stacie Croquet (talk) 23:16, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

The third paragraph of the name section of the article says that "Arabic linguistic convention would be to refer to him as 'Osama' or 'Osama bin Laden', not 'bin Laden' alone, as 'bin Laden' is a patronymic, not a surname in the Western manner." However, several times the article refers to him as "bin Laden," which would seem to contradict this. Is there a resolution I'm missing? It just seems weird for the article to contradict itself. Why don't we change each instance of "bin Laden" to "Osama" or "Osama bin Laden" as the article itself suggests? 66.229.133.209 (talk) 01:42, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

How do English mainstream reliable sources refer to him? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Would someone check Talk:Nathuram Godse#Lead: why .22sole.22? Few weeks ago, I had discussion with an editor and very soon it became repetitive. Main objection1 was, whether he was "sole" assassin or not and it turned into a lead re-write. I still think that the lead fails per WP:OPENPARA. Thanks. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 08:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I would like some clarification on the issue of whether people, usually men, who have the same name (or at least the same first name and family name) should have "Jr" included in their full name even when such people didn't include it in their name. Some editors include "Jr" for such people on the basis or assumption that this should be part of their full name. I seem to recall, however, that there is, or used to be, a comment in the MoS that "Jr" should only be included in a people's names if they used it themselves. Apologies if this has been discussed before. Thanks, Afterwriting (talk) 01:37, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

It would seem peculiar to append Jr to a name if a person didn't use that. Do you have an example of where this question has come up? Dicklyon (talk) 04:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. I have seen it ~ and changed it ~ in numerous articles in recent years. There is a long discussion about this matter on the talk page of the Bob Hoskins article. When he died some obituaries and articles added "Jr" to his name even though he didn't use it. Afterwriting (talk) 04:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If only a few reliable sources mention the fact that the subject is actually a Junior, I think it would be appropriate to at least mention it in passing somewhere in the article (perhaps in a parenthetical added to the opening sentence). I certainly would not use it more than that (and not in the title).

If, on the other hand, a clear majority of sources include the Jr. when referring to the subject, then so should we (even if the subject himself/herself does not personally use it)... per WP:COMMONNAME, we would certainly include it in our article title, as that would be the most recognizable version of his name. Blueboar (talk) 20:13, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

One has to be careful. If the subject didn't use "Jr", there could be a very good reason why. One member of my family is named after his father, but they have different middle names, much like George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush, so there is no junior–senior relationship to be had because of the differing middle names. Imzadi 1979 → 00:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I doubt a reliable source (defined as one with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy) will make that sort of mistake. So if we base what we write on reliable sources, we should be OK. Blueboar (talk) 02:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

There have been two long RfC in the last two years on the talk page of AT there is no consensus that the MOS guidelines cover article titles. Therefore discussions such as "#RfC: Comma or no comma before Jr. and Sr." are taking place in the wrong locations and any consensus that comes out of them are not binging on article titles. If there is to be a change to the article title policy or its naming conventions guidelines then any such changes ought to be discussed on the title policy talk page and/or the appropriate naming convention. -- PBS (talk) 20:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there has always been a clear consensus that the MOS applies to all parts of an article including titles. But there are a few like you who have resisted clarifying the AT policy to state explicitly that commonname is not about styling, even though a clear majority agree. So don't bring that up as a claim that "there is no consensus that the MOS guidelines cover article titles". They clearly do. Dicklyon (talk) 04:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

That's an interesting opinion, but the comma question is just punctuation, not naming. Is "binging" a typo above? —BarrelProof (talk) 20:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Could we please not play the "my policy trumps your policy" game again. The claim that AT has no standing because "the comma question is just punctuation" is rediculous. The reality is that we are talking about much more than "just punctuation". We are talking about punctuation that is part of a name. Thus, AT and the various naming conventions most certainly do need to have at least some jurisdiction here. I am not saying that MOS has no standing... but if MOS starts to make rulings on how we present names, rulings that ignore what AT and the naming conventions say, all you are doing is creating argument and disruption. Our policies and guidelines are supposed to work together and support each other. If they don't, then we have a problem. Blueboar (talk) 00:08, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Style guides don't seem to accept that concept. They treat the comma as punctuation, or styling, not as an inherent part of a name. Can you point to anyone or anything where there is evidence of the comma being thought of as a required or preferred part of a name? We had "Sammy Davis, Jr." as an example, yet most of his albums and many of his biographies, including one by his daughter, omit the comma. Who could then claim it's an inherent part of his name? By the way, my dad is a "Jr." and for 60 years I always wrote his name with a comma; yet I have no qualms about moving to a more modern style; shall I ask him if he minds? Dicklyon (talk) 04:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record... my father was also a "Jr."... and I know he did mind when people omitted the comma in his name. Blueboar (talk) 18:05, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Whatever happens, AT and MOS need to sing from the same songsheet. Otherwise we look like fools. Tony (talk) 04:55, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Blueboar (talk) 18:05, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

"Junior" or "Senior" appended to a name is not really part of the name per se. For example, George Bush, the 41st President of the United States, did not change his name by deed poll to "George Bush Sr." when he named his first son George; rather, "Sr." is sometimes appended to his name to distinguish from the 43rd President, who may equally have "Jr." appended to his name even though it does not form part of his name proper. As such, the styling of punctuation is a matter for the publication to decide, which is why it is covered by numerous reputable style guides, in addition to our own MoS. —sroc 💬 05:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I disagree... the appendage Junior and Senior are most definitely an integral part of the name. The Bushs are a poor example, as they are not actually "Senior" and "Junior" in the first place... they have different middle names. (I don't think many reliable sources make the mistake of referring to them as "Sr." and "Jr."... but any that do are factually incorrect.)

The thing about saying "we are free to set any style we want for our own house style" is that we tend to forget to ask the most important question: whether it is wise to do so. We forget that this freedom also includes the option to intentionally NOT set a style... or to allow for multiple styles. Blueboar (talk) 17:32, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the article at George H. W. Bush says: "Bush is often referred to as 'George H. W. Bush', ... or 'George Bush Sr.' to distinguish him from his son..." That aside, the fact is that "Sr." does not become part of one's name per se but is used to distinguish people with the same name. Whether it should be styled with commas (always with matching commas in a run-on sentence) or without commas is a matter of style which each publisher is entitled to decide for themselves (as many style guides do). —sroc 💬 13:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I know this has been rehashed several times above, but the current wording on the page:

Do not place a comma before Jr., Sr., or Roman numeral designation. Examples: Sammy Davis Jr., John F. Kennedy Jr., Otis D. Wright II.

which seemingly mandates not using the comma, does not match the decision of the RfC above, which was:

Zdroj:https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography/2015_archive
Text je dostupný za podmienok Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License 3.0 Unported; prípadne za ďalších podmienok. Podrobnejšie informácie nájdete na stránke Podmienky použitia.

---