A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | CH | I | J | K | L | M | N | O | P | Q | R | S | T | U | V | W | X | Y | Z | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes
... | This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
_-_The_Noun_Project.svg){kind=small}
|
|||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Can recounts of primary source strength and casualty figures be included in military infoboxes, if they're included in a secondary/tertiary source?
In this page Second Siege of Anandpur, an editor has repeatedly added a figure in the infobox from Koer Singh - an 18th century writer, who wrote detailed exegeses on the Sikh religion and explications on Sikh history, particularly about Guru Gobind and the events that transpired throughout his life. Koer Singh's work Gurbilas Patshahi 10 was composed from 1751-1762-. The source being used on the Wikipedia page is a reliable Oxford University published source, however much of the book is written in a tertiary tone, merely presenting an accumulation of summaries of primary sources, with little to no original commentary, intepretation or analysis from the author.
The book reads Koer Singh says that after the institution of the Khalsa......Consequently sent an army of 10,00,000 against Guru Gobind Singh
. The entire section preceding and after this is just recounting what the sources at that time said, the author does not seem to endorse or dismiss any particular narrative.
So should this 1 million figure be included in the infobox or not? On a side note, 1 million is an obvious figure of speech, sending 1 million men to besiege a few thousand belligerents would have been an incredible anomaly, iirc the entire Mughal army at it's zenith was 1 million, however that is being wilfully neglected, in my opinion, to push a narrative. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 22:34, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
"Wikipedia:DIT" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Wikipedia:DIT has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 29 § Wikipedia:DIT until a consensus is reached. Isla 🏳️⚧ 10:39, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Add numbers to link?
In a recent constructive discussion between MyCatIsAChonk, Nikkimaria, Sdkb, NebY, Folly Mox and Gawaon, an idea emerged that elegantly realizes MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE's principle "key facts at a glance": Instead of just naming a link “List of operas”, name it "Thirty-nine operas". I think that idea merits inclusion in this MOS. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 11:51, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- What specifically would you propose to add to this MOS to reflect that idea? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- How about something like “Use a pipe link with a number like List of operas by Gioachino Rossini|39 operas.” (Writing the number as a figure per MOS:NUMERAL, differently from what MyCatIsAChonk had). ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 08:29, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Please make the number optional. For living composers, it will change, for prolific composers, it may be hard to find, and will raise questions such as if unfinished works also count. I just added to the Rossini discussion, believing that even without a number, a link to a composer's works is a highly useful link from a composer's article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. — SebastianHelm 13:22, 9 November — continues after insertion below
- Please make the number optional. For living composers, it will change, for prolific composers, it may be hard to find, and will raise questions such as if unfinished works also count. I just added to the Rossini discussion, believing that even without a number, a link to a composer's works is a highly useful link from a composer's article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- How about something like “Use a pipe link with a number like List of operas by Gioachino Rossini|39 operas.” (Writing the number as a figure per MOS:NUMERAL, differently from what MyCatIsAChonk had). ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 08:29, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Template or Lua functionedit
I wonder ,though, if the problem for living composers could be solved with a template or Lua function returning the count of a category, as in {{countcat|Operas by Gioachino Rossini}}. However, that would currently yield 43, rather than 39. One too many from The Barber of Seville discography, which should be fixed by correctly putting that article in category:The Barber of Seville, but I don't know where the other 3 are coming from. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 13:22, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- List of operas by Gioachino Rossini is also in the category. List of operas by Gioachino Rossini lists Ivanhoé and Robert Bruce in the Pasticci table but they are included in the category — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 18:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ghost! That explains it. So, the function would need to omit entries piped to space, as the main article. Maybe that could then be used to check for consistency by a bot. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 20:36, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- There is then the issue of discography articles and other list-like articles. They should probably be sorted with an asterisk and the test is then to exclude articles with any non-alphanumeric sort key. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:04, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Good idea. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 21:44, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- There is then the issue of discography articles and other list-like articles. They should probably be sorted with an asterisk and the test is then to exclude articles with any non-alphanumeric sort key. — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 21:04, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ghost! That explains it. So, the function would need to omit entries piped to space, as the main article. Maybe that could then be used to check for consistency by a bot. ◅ Sebastian Helm 🗨 20:36, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Wikilinksedit
Is there any policy on wikilinks? The project page doesn't appear to mention them. Some infoboxes include wikilinks to articles to which there are also wikilinks from the text. Are links from an article's text preferable to links from its box? Are there exceptions? Are there cases when links from both are desirable? Mcljlm (talk) 22:40, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- The infobox is generally treated as if separate from the article for this purpose. Anything that would be contextually sensible to link at least once in the article is also sensible to link in the infobox, and vice-versa. Our guideline on re-liking things also changed pretty recently; we now link stuff one per section instead of once per article, because we know that most of our readers are jumping around all over the place, not reading articles from top to bottom. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:06, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish Thanks. Some sections are brief. Linking a word once per section could mean linking the same thing several times within a few lines. A few hours ago I came across an article where someone mentioned in the lede was linked in 2 sentences one after the other. Then I noticed he was also linked in the lede's last sentence. That was in addition to an infobox link. The same lede also had someone else linked twice.
- Someone else mentioned in the lede (only by his surname) isn't linked until he's mentioned in a later section. Presumably now he should be linked there as well as later. Mcljlm (talk) 04:41, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, MOS:REPEATLINK says to linke once per article and, "if helpful", again at the first occurrence in a section (and tables, captions, infobox, etc. "if helpful"). So, it's not that different a standard than it used to be. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Well, yes, I did not mean to imply that linking once per section is mandatory, rather just permissible. As with all things, excercise common sense. If there are a bunch of a very short sections, linking the same thing in back to back instances of such micro-sections isn't going to be useful. One should also consider whether the article structure needs work, since we generally shouldn't have microsections unless we expect them to be expanded in pretty short order. Anyway, the point for the OP is that if a link would be useful in the main body, it will pretty much by definition be useful in the infobox, since many readers read nothing but the infobox or a fraction thereof. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 12:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
Removal of senseless blatheredit
I've removed the following as worse-than-useless noise:
The recommended process for creating an infobox template is simply to begin, and to gather as many requirements as possible. Test the base format for a new template as a static table first, then once consensus is reached, migrate it into template format. The template should be reviewed before being used extensively in articles in case the template or defined parameters need modification to minimize re-work. If new fields and parameters are added, articles must be updated to reflect the new requirements. If parameters are renamed or removed, many articles will likely be unaffected, since extraneous parameters are ignored.
To walk through it:
- "Overall approach" does not actually describe this content.
- "The recommended process for creating an infobox template is ..." isn't true, since this does not describe an actual process, and no consensus concluded to recommend what is in here. Nor does a section that actually did provide a recommended process for creating such a template belong in an MoS page in the first place; that would be a matter for "Help:Infobox".
- "simply to begin": What a silly thing to say.
- "gather as many requirements as possible" is meaningless gibberish. What would be a "requirement" and how would we "gather" it? Even if that had a clear meaning, when would it not be "possible"?
- "Test the base format for a new template" has no clear meaning and sounds like pseudo-jargon out of Tron.
- "as a static table first": No one develops templates this way, and trying do it would largely be counter-productive, especially given how the underlying meta-template code for infoboxes works today.
- "then once consensus is reached, migrate it into template format": More of the same. No one has to establish a consensus before using template code to code a template.
- "The template should be reviewed before being used extensively in articles in case the template or defined parameters need modification to minimize re-work": This really doesn't parse well due to missing punctuation and some other syntax issues. But really this is just "use preview and sandbox" advice that pertains to all template development, and has nothing to do with MoS, including MOS:INFOBOX. It's just poorly reiterated basics from Help:Template.
- "If new fields and parameters are added, articles must be updated to reflect the new requirements." That's patently false. The infobox as deployed in a article would continue to work perfectly well; it simply wouldn't have additional parameters (and "fields and parameters" is redundant). Articles only "must" be updated if an existing parameter has been invalidated in a way that makes the template break, and this is something we don't do. The old parameter name is retained as a parameter alias, or a "retired" parameter (like
|ethnicity=in{{Infobox person}}) is simply made to no longer produce any output at all. - "If parameters are renamed or removed, many articles will likely be unaffected, since extraneous parameters are ignored." This, too, is factually wrong. If a parameter was literally renamed (i.e. changed from one string to another, without the old one being retained as an operational alias), then while the original would become an "extraneous parameter" that was ignored, that would of course affect the article, by removing previously displayed information from the infobox. Again, we don't do this; we create aliases for old parameter names to the new ones so this does not happen. If a parameter is completely removed, the same thing will happen (by intent), but will still be affecting the article.
Literally not one single piece of that mess has any business being in this guideline. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, the guideline is better without it. Presumably that was useful guidance long ago (it was in the guideline 15 years ago, I stopped looking after that), but it has far outlived its usefulness. Ajpolino (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
MOS:COLLAPSEedit
There's a discussion in place at the main MOS talk page about whether or not MOS:COLLAPSE supports the use of collapsed infoboxes of the type seen at Montacute House and Little Moreton Hall. Feel free to comment if this is of interest to you. A.D.Hope (talk) 11:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
Hi, I have found inconsistencies between the cities across the globe on Wikipedia relating to the images format on the infobox. Refer to the articles New York City, London, Liverpool and Chicago vs Newcastle upon Tyne, Prayagraj and Hyderabad. Which is the accepted image format? Is there a particular norm or rule dictating the format of the images to be placed in? My recent edit on Hyderabad got 2 reverted saying that it is not accepted format. What is the accepted format? Since I find lot of cities in the united states and many cities in India itself like New Delhi and Mumbai have a different format. Also refer to the talk page:3 456legendtalk 00:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
- Please participate in this discussion to come to a common interpretation about the infobox image format for the city related articles. It would be of a great help. 456legendtalk 01:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
| Alternative 1 | Alternative 2 | ||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
| ||||||||||||
Please kindly put in your views and opinions 456legendtalk 15:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- This issue was previously considered at this (incredibly annoying to link to because someone had the bright idea to put brackets in a section heading) discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_203#Putting_captions_in_{{multiple_image}}_galleries_in_infobox. There wasn't any formal consensus, but the status quo had previously been to have one caption at the bottom, and that discussion didn't exactly find agreement to move away from that. The main issue is space, which is at a huge premium in city infoboxes given how crowded they already are. Your alternatives aren't the same size, but you can still see how much more room alternative 2 takes up. Sdkb talk 03:55, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Sdkb I'm sorry I didn't see your comment earlier. That said, shouldn't we actually reach a consensus for the purpose of maintaining consistency? 456legendtalk 04:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Consistency is good where it helps us enforce best practices and reduce the maintenance burden in situations with functionally identical circumstances. In this case, there's possibly a best practice (in my view alternative 1), but not a big maintenance burden from inconsistency (the biggest part of it is the confusion/uncertainty it creates over which format to use), nor functionally identical circumstances (e.g. some cities have much more recognizable landmarks in their galleries and therefore need the captions to be nearby less). Sdkb talk 04:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for highlighting these aspects. Also considering the points raised by the user Huggums537 in the archived discussion, it seems reasonable to conclude that flexibility should be allowed for editors, as hinted in your statement to necessarily help address the varying circumstances and potential confusion, ensuring a more practical and adaptable approach. (Since your example does makes sense and is practical in nature) 456legendtalk 05:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Consistency is good where it helps us enforce best practices and reduce the maintenance burden in situations with functionally identical circumstances. In this case, there's possibly a best practice (in my view alternative 1), but not a big maintenance burden from inconsistency (the biggest part of it is the confusion/uncertainty it creates over which format to use), nor functionally identical circumstances (e.g. some cities have much more recognizable landmarks in their galleries and therefore need the captions to be nearby less). Sdkb talk 04:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Sdkb I'm sorry I didn't see your comment earlier. That said, shouldn't we actually reach a consensus for the purpose of maintaining consistency? 456legendtalk 04:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I prefer Alternative 1 for several reasons. Firstly, it occupies less space, which is advantageous. Additionally, it presents a cleaner appearance overall. In terms of viewing information, it's essential that info boxes remain as compact as possible while still conveying all necessary details. Therefore, opting for Alternative 1 aligns with this principle. RWILD✉ 13:29, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
|
Hyderabad | |
|---|---|
 Charminar during the Ramzan night bazaar |
- WP:COLLAGE tels us:
Collages and montages are single images that illustrate multiple closely related concepts, where overlapping or similar careful placement of component images is necessary to illustrate a point in an encyclopedic way
emphasis added. I would say that these types of collages are more decorative and do not rise to the standard of being necessary. A good single representative image readily associated with the subject (see MOS:LEADIMAGE) is way better than multiple images particularly if they are small (placed abreast) and/or there is insufficient contrast between them. Too much eye-candy can be a distraction and not a benefit. Furthermore, WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE tells us that an economical infobox is more effective and large infoboxes can have accessibility issues. The article would state thatthe Charminar has become an icon of the city
. On that basis, that image in the infobox would qualify as agood single representative image
. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:30, 2 May 2024 (UTC) - I admit to finding this discussion not entirely necessary. While I'm personally inclined to the concision and space economy of "alternative 1", "alternative 2" isn't misrepresenting or disinforming our readers. Coming up with something formal for the sake of consistency on a matter of comparatively minor variation falls pretty low in terms of my sense of what really needs a more formal, wiki-wide, enforced consensus/rule. I'm just not sure what we have to gain from consistency for its own sake. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 00:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Alternative 1 does not in fact present in clockwise order on mobile resolutions (which is >60% of our viewership). Perhaps something to consider. :) Izno (talk) 02:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
MOS:FORCELINKedit
James Earl Jones | |
|---|---|
.jpg) Jones in 2013 | |
| Born | January 17, 1931 Arkabutla, Mississippi, U.S. |
| Alma mater | University of Michigan (BA) |
| Occupation | Actor |
| Years active | 1953–present |
| Works | Full list |
| Spouses | |
| Children | 1 |
| Parent |
|
| Awards | Full list |
Does MOS:FORCELINK prohibit linking to notable works from an infobox4? I'd like to get this clarified. That seems to be a extremely liberal interpretation, but if true, there's a lot of biography articles that link lists of awards/works that would need to have those links removed. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 03:56, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- No; MOS:FORCELINK applies to links in text, not links included outside of text to aid readers in finding additional articles on the topic:
Use a link when appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links.
- Per that interpretation of FORCELINK, we wouldn't be allowed to use templates like Template:Antonio_Vivaldi or have "See also" lists at the bottom of articles. BilledMammal (talk) 04:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
- Correct: it shouldn't be used in IBs. Look at why we have FORCELINK. - SchroCat (talk) 15:46, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Until you find a consensus for your interpretation of FORCELINK, you really shouldn't be changing articles with that justification.5 Nemov (talk) 15:58, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- It's not my interpretation. It's following what the guideline says. Just because IB warriors are trying to expand it's use outside the reasons we have the guideline in the first place, you are the one that should curtail the breaches. - SchroCat (talk) 16:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- I would also ask you to remain civil. Cleary your interpretation differs from other editors and you're not the sole arbiter of "what a guideline says." That is why it's wise to find consensus before making changes. Linking to works has been used on biographies for some time, on this article it was the status quo before you introduced this reasoning for the change. That is why I asked the question here. Nemov (talk) 16:06, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- It's not my interpretation. It's following what the guideline says. Just because IB warriors are trying to expand it's use outside the reasons we have the guideline in the first place, you are the one that should curtail the breaches. - SchroCat (talk) 16:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Until you find a consensus for your interpretation of FORCELINK, you really shouldn't be changing articles with that justification.5 Nemov (talk) 15:58, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Correct: it shouldn't be used in IBs. Look at why we have FORCELINK. - SchroCat (talk) 15:46, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- As an example, please see review this infobox for James Earl Jones as an example. It includes inks to works and to awards. Nemov (talk) 19:50, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- For Jones, "Works" linking to James Earl Jones on screen and stage and "Awards" linking to List of awards and nominations received by James Earl Jones is violating the spirit of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:
Whereas previously editors might have linked in-page to James Earl Jones § Filmography or James Earl Jones § Awards and honors, the links are now off the page. However, a link is not a summary of key facts nor are they curated highlights. More from INFOBOXPURPOSE:Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function
—Bagumba (talk) 22:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article.
- For Jones, "Works" linking to James Earl Jones on screen and stage and "Awards" linking to List of awards and nominations received by James Earl Jones is violating the spirit of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE:
- Infobox purpose should be a different discussion. For Jones, I'd suggest to say List of performances on screen and stage, while "List of awards" should already be clear enough. I believe that a complete list is more neutral about his achievements than a hand-picked selection would be. I therefore embrace the link to a list, a concept that was already part of {{infobox classical composer}}, drafted in 2008 and moved to mainspace in March 2010. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Infobox purpose should be a different discussion
: Disagree. Since we are talking about an infobox, INFOBOXPURPOSE is quite relevant, especially if some are interpretating that NOFORCELINK doesn't apply to infoboxes.—Bagumba (talk) 16:42, 6 March 2024 (UTC)- We should resolve FORCELINK first since that's the topic. We can discuss INFOBOXPURPOSE next if others wish to get clarification on the spirit of INFOBOXPURPOSE. Nemov (talk) 16:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't get it, Bagumba, sorry. The question raised is: may a link from an infobox about a composer to the works by the same be reverted citing FORCELINK, and the answer that I read (BilledMammal, Lee Vilenski) is "no", because the guideline is meant for prose only. The question if the link may be reverted citing something else is a different question which should not be confused with it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- I guess I'm thinking too WP:NOTBURO. The question to me is just simply: "Does the link belong?"—Bagumba (talk) 17:30, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Infobox purpose should be a different discussion. For Jones, I'd suggest to say List of performances on screen and stage, while "List of awards" should already be clear enough. I believe that a complete list is more neutral about his achievements than a hand-picked selection would be. I therefore embrace the link to a list, a concept that was already part of {{infobox classical composer}}, drafted in 2008 and moved to mainspace in March 2010. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- NOFORCELINK applies to prose, not tables, infoboxes and the like. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 22:19, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- When I visit an author's or performer's article, I often look for a list of their works. Instead of skimming the article and look for a {{Main}} or {{further}} link, I'd much prefer having such links in the infobox. That does not mean these links should be omitted from the article's body. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:50, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- At least two editors (see Vivaldi, and please comment there to leave the discussion in one place) still question that it doesn't apply to infoboxes. Can it perhaps be said more clearly in the guideline that it applies only to prose? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- How could it effect Infoboxes, it says
Use a link when appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links.
As there is no prose in infoboxes, we can't rewrite the information to be read without requiring. The point of no force link is to stop people from writing complex prose and including a link that explains all the info. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)- Of course it affects IBs. Don’t cherrypick FORCELINK, but read it in full. The guideline specifically refers to those who "may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links". You can't just ignore the inconvenient bit you don't want to deal with. These links fail the purpose of the IB purpose and FORCELINK - SchroCat (talk) 17:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, if there is a suitable way to state the information in an infobox then obviously that's the way to solve it. However, simply having a link to another article in a way that would be very difficult to do in prose (especially in an infobox) isn't a reason to not remove. We have audio and visual items in infoboxes that for various reasons might not also be viewable (with alttext and the like). In this case, the link says "list of works" or equivellent).
- More pertinently, is whether or not the link is suitable. In the case of a list of items that would be too large for an infobox, that seems like a suitable solution. This should be, as said above, only to full articles, and not sections. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- No, it breaches the purpose of an IB (as outlined by the IB guidelines) and FORCELINK. How many guidelines do you want to ignore? An IB appears at the top of the page, in an overly prominent position and - by virtue of its position - carries a lot of wp:weight, so needs to be used properly. Being in an IB highlights the fields used above other information in an article, and this field is one that breaks the guidelines. A field like “Works: Full list" tells you what, exactly? All the other fields in an IB provide a factoid. The date of birth field tells you the date the person was born; the place of birth field tells you where they were born. “Works: Full list" tells you zero information about the subject. You can’t ignore the part of the guideline you don’t want to deal with. You want to use this field? Go find a way that supports both machine readers and the printed versions—as clearly outlined in the guidelines—and then re-write the guideline. - SchroCat (talk) 20:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Of course it affects IBs. Don’t cherrypick FORCELINK, but read it in full. The guideline specifically refers to those who "may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links". You can't just ignore the inconvenient bit you don't want to deal with. These links fail the purpose of the IB purpose and FORCELINK - SchroCat (talk) 17:41, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- How could it effect Infoboxes, it says
- There's doesn't appear to be much support that FORCELINK prohibits linking to related articles from infoboxes, but I do want to clarify MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE that was raised by Bagumba. I have opened a discussion below. Nemov (talk)
- No one is claiming that you can’t put links into IBs. That’s a straw man. It's also a false claim that FORCELINK doesn't apply. No-one has come up with a way that "Works: Full list" makes any sense to machine readers or on the printed page. Again, if you want to use this field, then go find a way that supports offline readers, republishers and the printed versions—as clearly outlined in the guidelines—and then re-write the guideline; alternatively acknowledge we don't care enough about the offline readers, republishers or printed page readers and amend the guideline regardless of them, but as it stands, the practice of some is to ignore the guidelines and do what they want. - SchroCat (talk) 22:13, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
I've only skimread this discussion but if the issue is that "full link" is misleading for some users, then why not just replace it with "See list at other article" or "See list in #Section section"? Thryduulf (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Ludwig van Beethoven | |
|---|---|
 Beethoven (1820) | |
| Born | |
| Baptised | 17 December 1770 |
| Died | 26 March 1827 (aged 56) |
| Occupations |
|
| Works | List of compositions |
| Parent(s) | Johann van Beethoven Maria Magdalena Keverich |
| Signature | |
 | |
In the discussion above regarding FORCELINK, MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE was raised.
When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. (That is, an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below.) The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content. Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function.
Does MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE prohibit biography article infoboxes from linking to list of awards/works? Below are examples of some articles that include infobox links to related articles.
Clarification on this issue will be helpful since it affects a lot of articles. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 21:14, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Yesedit
- It breaches INFOBOXPURPOSE (and FORCELINK). The entry “Works: Full list" does not "allow readers to identify key facts at a glance". The key facts are only available by clicking onto a different page, which goes against the purpose and spirit of what an IB is supposed to be and do. - SchroCat (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per above. It also doesn't make a lot of sense to argue that List of works|List of works is okay when #Works|List of works is not, per Bagumba. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:32, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Per above. Please keep infoboxes concise and include only key facts. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:40, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- For the Beethoven example, Ludwig van Beethoven § Music details his music career, and includes a link there to the comprehensive list. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE reads:
It seems to violate the spirit of that guidance to link directly outside the page, when we don't link to the related section that's on the page (and in the TOC). It's more elegant for the reader to stay on the page, reading higher-level content first and being offered more detailed off-page links from the body.—Bagumba (talk) 04:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function
- Per Nikkimaria above. Ajpolino (talk) 17:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Noedit
- Linking to a related article that includes a full awards/works is not prohibited by MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. I don't object to how it's used at Barack Obama as well. However, these links should not be used for content that's included in the article.
Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function
. Setting aside the policy argument, the reason these links have existed in many different articles is because they're useful. Making information more difficult to find for end users is something we should avoid. Thanks! - Nemov (talk) 21:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC) - No. We have the ability to set our own guidance here, so I'm a lot less persuaded by arguments about what the guideline says/doesn't say than arguments about what it ought to say. We discussed this issue not too long ago at this thread, which I don't think others have linked yet but which I'd recommend participants read. Quoting myself from there:
Sdkb talk 03:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)I've always found links to lists in infoboxes slightly odd, but they're highly relevant to the subject, and reader data shows that having them is important for helping readers discover the list. The only alternative seems to be leaving them out, which doesn't feel optimal.
- As I wrote above, such links to articles listing works/awards save readers interested in those skimming the article looking for a {{Main}} or {{Further}} link. Bagumba's suggestion below to allow for sidebar functionality strikes me as sensible. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- It shouldn't. These links, whether to sections of the same article or to a sub-article, are very clearly beneficial to readers so they should be allowed, even encouraged in some cases. If this is contrary to the current guideline then the guideline needs to be changed. Thryduulf (talk) 11:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- No - similar to what Nemov said, the policy prohibits links to sections within the article, because there is a table of contents for that. There is no ToC for links to other articles, and though one could argue that the 'See also' section serves that purpose, but should a section at the very bottom of an article contain necessary links for a reader to have access to? I think not. Fully support having links to other articles in infoboxes. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- No. I believe that a list of a composer's compositions is the most neutral and complete summary of their achievements, and a link to it early - in both infobox and lead - should be wanted, saving the reader to scroll to a Music section or the footer navbox. I don't see the wording of the guidelines contrary to presenting such a link in the infobox, - FORCELINK speaks of sentences, so not about infobox data; the reader of a printed version is not forced to follow a link, but can read what the printed version says about the music. Why not offer the link as a convenience to the (estimated) 99% of readers who will be able to click? There is interest see here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- No. The
key facts
of some kinds of subject will invariably include things that may become too large to include directly. It makes no sense to omit them arbitrarily based on their size: Beethoven having more compositions than can fit directly in an infobox does not diminish their importance to a reader. The alternative to a link would be some sort of collapsible or truncation, both of which clearly hinder usability to follow an arbitrary standard. ― novov (t c) 08:54, 9 March 2024 (UTC) - No, but the links should be made as informative as possible, see this earlier discussion on the topic. "Works: List of compositions", as in the infobox at the top of this discussion, gives more information than something trivial like "Works: Full list", and should hence be preferred. Gawaon (talk) 10:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- The line that was removed (four times) was "List of compositions". If wanted it could be made more precise, such as for Vivaldi: Lists of operas, concertos and other compositions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- Well, if it can be made more informative, that's arguably even better. In the earlier discussion, the line arrived at for Rossini was "Works: Thirty-nine operas · Other compositions" (with two different links). I'm a bit sad that there is no infobox in the actual article on Rossini. Gawaon (talk) 11:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- The line that was removed (four times) was "List of compositions". If wanted it could be made more precise, such as for Vivaldi: Lists of operas, concertos and other compositions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- No, and it shouldn't. A composer's list of works is a "key fact," or something many readers will of course be looking for. It helps the reader to either offer a list of the works (if short enough), or a link to a list. We shouldn't try to force the reader to first read "high quality content" before getting to where the reader wants to go. Help the reader by giving them quick links to where they want to go, don't try to control the reader by forcing them on a linear content path, it's paternalistic. Levivich (talk) 08:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Also there is no TOC on mobile. Taking the Beethoven example, to get to the list of compositions (without using the infobox link), the mobile reader must scroll down several screens (past the infobox, past the entire lead), open up the "music" level 2 heading, and then click on the hatnote link. A link in the infobox would make that much easier. Also the link should go to a subsection of the article if there is not a separate sub article. Put "list of works" link in the same place on every article about a person with a list of works. That's good web design: predictable, easy, standard. Levivich (talk) 20:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- No per Mir Novov. As I wrote last October,
It gives a list of the composer's works, something the article does not fully cover, because the entire list of his works cannot be handled in the article. It is a different article. It does not attempt to cover the same subject as the composer article. The section "works" is best summed up as a link to the longer article of his works. This is, as I showed above, exactly what that line in the infobox is for.
🌺 Cremastra (talk) 14:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC) - No. When someone has a list article about their creative works, it generally indicates two things: (1) that the creation of those works is a meaningful part of that person's notability, and (2) that they have been prolific enough that it would be impractical to list all of their work in an infobox. Linking directly to "list of works" articles is a compact, stable, and easy-to-find way to get this significant information in front of readers' eyes. By contrast: trying to list everything on (for example) Johnny Cash albums discography in an infobox is obviously unworkable, and mentioning only specific works by name has historically been a breeding ground for cruft and edit-warring. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- No MyCatIsAChonk and Gerda Arendt. Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 20:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- INFOBOXPURPOSE prohibits links to sections, from my reading of it it doesn't mention links to other articles. I would support the continued prohibition of section links. FORCELINK says not to use links if the reader has to use that link to understand the link (or that's my generalised reading of it). I don't see any reader being confused by "Works List of compositions" (or similar), so I don't see it prohibiting such links to other articles. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 02:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Neutraledit
Commentsedit
This question is so badly formed it’s not worth approaching or voting on. Any information in an article is “related” - that’s why the information is in the IB. This can be taken as being if the (linked) place of birth is allowed, because it’s related. Can I suggest you frame the question properly first? - SchroCat (talk) 22:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
I'll need two versions of the same bio infobox, to fully understand what's being asked. GoodDay (talk) 03:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- You can review the infobox of James Earl Jones in the above discussion that features a link to his "full works." Each example has a link that goes to a full list of awards/works/etc. The content in these related articles is too big for the main article. Also added example of the Ludwig van Beethoven infobox which features a link to list of his compositions. Nemov (talk) 03:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps the contention is whether MOS:INFOBOX should be modified to allow WP:SIDEBAR functionality in an infobox. If so, the debate is not on what MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE currently says, but on what it could be modifed to say.—Bagumba (talk) 04:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- What would something like that look like for a biography? Nemov (talk) 04:36, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE says an ibx should
summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article
. However, some want to allow navigation links, like a sidebar would, which does not directly summarize notable achievements to the ibx reader.—Bagumba (talk) 05:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)- Given this use is against INFOBOXPURPOSE as it’s stands (even the sensible ‘no’ !votes are more about the links being “useful” than about whether they are compliant with the guidelines), then recasting the guideline to bring it in line with the proposed use would be the only way to avoid the breaches such use brings, and to avoid any future misuse of IBs (based on this ‘thin end of the wedge’ misuse like this). Changing the basis of INFOBOXPURPOSE would, I think, need a centrally advertised RfC based on wording that allows this use, but that avoids any other problems. It should not be too onerous to change the wording at PURPOSE to reflect the current use, but it does need to be done properly, rather than just ignored. - SchroCat (talk) 07:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Popping in here because I had a similar discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Linking (see here). It seems that the main argument for the Yes side is that the wording of INFOBOXPURPOSE prevents these kinds of links. Where would an RfC to change the wording of that guideline be started? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Let's see how is discussion plays out. Given how many articles this affects, we would need a pretty clear consensus to say these links violate INFOBOX purpose. Nemov (talk) 13:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
It seems that the main argument for the Yes side is that the wording of INFOBOXPURPOSE prevents these kinds of links
: But that's exactly how the question was framed (Does MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE prohibit...
). It wasn't an open ended, "is it a good good idea to..." —Bagumba (talk) 13:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)- Given most of the sensible 'no' !votes that haven't stuck their heads in the sand acknowledge that current practice isn't in line with the wording ("less persuaded by arguments about what the guideline says/doesn't say than arguments about what it ought to say", "If this is contrary to the current guideline then the guideline needs to be changed", etc), these are also more towards supporting a wording change (which needs an RfC), than the current standing is more towards changing the wording. This who are ignoring the problem are just not reading the guideline in full, or ignoring the bits they don't want to acknowledge. It may as well be done properly - it's not like this is a pressing problem that needs sorting immediately. I suspect an RfC supporting the wording change would be well supported, but given it changes what the purpose of the IB is, it's not something that can be done in a half-arsed way by sneaking through something others may want to have input on. - SchroCat (talk) 16:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Popping in here because I had a similar discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Linking (see here). It seems that the main argument for the Yes side is that the wording of INFOBOXPURPOSE prevents these kinds of links. Where would an RfC to change the wording of that guideline be started? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Given this use is against INFOBOXPURPOSE as it’s stands (even the sensible ‘no’ !votes are more about the links being “useful” than about whether they are compliant with the guidelines), then recasting the guideline to bring it in line with the proposed use would be the only way to avoid the breaches such use brings, and to avoid any future misuse of IBs (based on this ‘thin end of the wedge’ misuse like this). Changing the basis of INFOBOXPURPOSE would, I think, need a centrally advertised RfC based on wording that allows this use, but that avoids any other problems. It should not be too onerous to change the wording at PURPOSE to reflect the current use, but it does need to be done properly, rather than just ignored. - SchroCat (talk) 07:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE says an ibx should
Preparing for changing MOS:INFOBOXedit
Considering that four more no votes have been added in the past two days, I believe it's appropriate to prepare for an RfC to changing the wording of some sections in MOS:INFOBOX. To summarize the arguments: links to "lists of works/albums/operas/songs/others" in infoboxes do not violate MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE because they are not links to sections within the article and are key facts that readers may want access to early in an article. Additionally, these links do not violate MOS:FORCELINK because FORCELINK deals with sentences, and infoboxes are not part of the text.
Here are the proposals I'd put up at the RfC, and please make an alterations or additions or comments you fee' are necessary before the RfC is opened:
- Proposal A: Amend the first paragraph of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE with: "Links to other articles are allowed but should be informative: see the section below Links to other articles."
- Proposal B: Create a subsection under "Design principles" titled "Links to other articles" with the following text: "Links to other relevant articles, such as lists of works, may be used, but should be as informative as possible (e.g. "Thirty-nine operas ⋅ Other compositions" is preferable to just "Full list"). Like other infobox parameters, the link must also appear in the body of the article."
-MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure RFC is even necessary. These links have existed for quite some time with no incident. I brought the issue here since it was a relatively new objection. If there's going to be a change made the onus would be on infobox minimalists to change INFOBOXPURPOSE to expressly prohibit these type of links. However, there appears to be very little support for making this change. - Nemov (talk) 13:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Nemov, I feel the need to initiate this because of strong pushback from some at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music. Just look at Rossini: numerous oppositions to having an infobox there, in spite of our own discussion here. Or look to Cosima Wagner: that discussion got rather unpleasant quickly. There have even been comparisons to Nazis! I feel that changing the policy is the only way to truly standardize IBs across articles, especially for composers. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 14:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- (ec) Given that the 4 opponents' argument is the current wording of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, I agree that a wider discussion might be needed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:04, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree such an RFC may be needed (as the one who IIRC came up with the "thirty-nine operas" piping, I'd support B), but please let's not make this about whether we should have infoboxes at all, or the opportunity for a small improvement will be lost in division over that larger issue and we'll have WP:ARBINFOBOX and WP:ARBINFOBOX2 looming over us as well. NebY (talk) 15:54, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Nemov, I feel the need to initiate this because of strong pushback from some at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music. Just look at Rossini: numerous oppositions to having an infobox there, in spite of our own discussion here. Or look to Cosima Wagner: that discussion got rather unpleasant quickly. There have even been comparisons to Nazis! I feel that changing the policy is the only way to truly standardize IBs across articles, especially for composers. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 14:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- If a person did not already have a standalone list of works, but had an elaborate list embedded on their bio, it also seems inconsistent why we would allow a link to another page, but not a link to similar content on the same page. So to me, the question is whether a link to any list, either internal or external to the bio, is suitable.—Bagumba (talk) 14:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Bagumba. If the list is too complicated and/or extensive to summarise in an infobox there should be a link to it from the infobox, regardless of whether it's a section on the same article or a separate article. It's equally valuable to readers in both places. Thryduulf (talk) 14:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
If the list is too complicated and/or extensive to summarise in an infobox...
: That's where I'm not convinced yet that a link is needed. Invariably, a decent lead already has select works mentioned, by no means an exhaustive list. If an editorial decision can be made on what works to highlight in the lead's prose, why is it not similarly possible to determine what works to highlight in an infobox, providing readers the quick overview of key fact that is an infobox's purpose? —Bagumba (talk) 15:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)- @Bagumba, the difficulty with putting famous works (like in Pablo Picasso's article) in the infobox is that it a) creates great clutter in the box (just see how long Picasso's is) and b) does not work for famous things with common titles. On the topic of point b, take for example Beethoven: some of his most famous works are the Symphony No. 5 and No. 9, the Piano Concerto No. 5, many of his late string quartets, his opera Fidelio, many many piano sonatas (including the very famous Moonlight), Fur Elise, etc etc. My point is that listing works does not always work, and it especially doesn't work for composers. This is why many discussion related to this result from composer articles: listing works does not work for such monumental and complex figures. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
listing works does not work for such monumental and complex figures
: But a decent article already makes such editorial decisions regarding which works are to be mention in the lead's prose.—Bagumba (talk) 06:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)- @Bagumba, imagine the leads for the articles on Mahler and Beethoven. If we had a sentence for their best-known works, set up like in the first para of Sergei Prokofiev's lead, they'd look like this:
- - Beethoven's works include such widely heard pieces as the Fifth Symphony, Ninth Symphony, and Fifth Piano Concerto.
- - Mahler's works include such widely heard pieces as the Fifth Symphony, Ninth Symphony, and Second Symphony.
- Of course, this is cherry-picking works without titles, but it makes a good point: both Mahler and Beethoven are best known for their symphonies, most of which are indistinguishable from each other without including a link. And, we know from the FORCELINK discussion above that you can't distuinguish something just by linking it.
- That is why we need to use the "Works" parameter in the infobox: providing quick access to a list of works that's much more detailed than the lead provides clarification for the reader without confusing the names of works. But, even then, look at some composer FAs as they stand: Mahler's works aren't even mentioned until para 3 of the lead, and only three are stated; or see Richard Wagner, who's Ring Cycle is the only work mentioned in the lead besides Meistersinger; or even Gustav Holst, which only talks about The Planets and disregards his other work. All three of those composers are FAs, and yet their leads don't mention many of their works. We need infoboxes in these articles to provide better access to the list of compositions, so readers don't have to click around to find something that should be obvious from the start. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 10:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Bagumba, the difficulty with putting famous works (like in Pablo Picasso's article) in the infobox is that it a) creates great clutter in the box (just see how long Picasso's is) and b) does not work for famous things with common titles. On the topic of point b, take for example Beethoven: some of his most famous works are the Symphony No. 5 and No. 9, the Piano Concerto No. 5, many of his late string quartets, his opera Fidelio, many many piano sonatas (including the very famous Moonlight), Fur Elise, etc etc. My point is that listing works does not always work, and it especially doesn't work for composers. This is why many discussion related to this result from composer articles: listing works does not work for such monumental and complex figures. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- As someone pointed out above, isn't that what a table of contents is for? If there is appetite for this, I would encourage a separate question (possibly a separate RfC, running at the same time) that provides new wording that specifically allows this. If a blind eye is turned on smaller points, it will become a bigger problem later, so it may as well be done properly now to get it right. - SchroCat (talk) 18:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
isn't that what a table of contents is for
why should a reader need to hunt for the TOC and follow a link to what may or may not be an intuitively named section when they could just follow a link right where they are currently looking, especially when that is where the information (or a link to it) is located in other articles and there is no indication that they need to do so? Thryduulf (talk) 18:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Bagumba. If the list is too complicated and/or extensive to summarise in an infobox there should be a link to it from the infobox, regardless of whether it's a section on the same article or a separate article. It's equally valuable to readers in both places. Thryduulf (talk) 14:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- Those questions seem appropriate for dealing with the PURPOSE point, although once it is opened up, there is a good chance the wider readership may disagree entirely with changing the purpose, so you may want to think about including an Option 3 of not changing the section (and therefore not allowing these links). I suspect it will get very few !votes, but it should be included - to avoid giving a fait accompli if nothing else.If you are opening an RfC on this, the cherrypicking of FORCELINK should be addressed to deal with the part of the guideline that specifically refers to not linking to parts that are useless for the time when "The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links": "Works: List of Works" is a breach of the guidelines as they currently stand. Having a second RfC running at the same time as the first would be the most efficient way of also dealing with this conflict - its certainly better than ignoring the problem or pretending there isn't an issue. - SchroCat (talk) 17:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
"Works: List of Works" is a breach of the guidelines
this can easily be solved by replacing "List of works" with an informative phrase such as "See List of works by Bach", see the #Compositions section", or similar. This shouldn't require an RFC. Thryduulf (talk) 18:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)- Again, I’m not sure why the opposition to opening it up to the community. ”Works: See List of works by Bach" is still a breach of the guidelines as they currently stand. It may as well get wider input and a solid consensus for a change. - SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not opposed to an RFC, I just don't think it's required. Thryduulf (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf, as I said to Nemov above, I feel the need to initiate this because of strong pushback from some at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music. Implementing "See List of works by Bach" is a great idea that I would love to just work, but there is strong opposition to that idea in the WPClassical community. That is mainly why an RfC is needed- to change the guidelines and formally allow this parameter to be used as it's intended. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 20:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't object. I would object to Option 3 as worded above. This discussion has settled the main question, INFOBOXPURPUSE doesn't specifically prohibit these links. This RFC would simply present a proposal that gives some guidelines on how to make these links clearer. Nemov (talk) 21:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Thryduulf, as I said to Nemov above, I feel the need to initiate this because of strong pushback from some at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music. Implementing "See List of works by Bach" is a great idea that I would love to just work, but there is strong opposition to that idea in the WPClassical community. That is mainly why an RfC is needed- to change the guidelines and formally allow this parameter to be used as it's intended. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 20:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not opposed to an RFC, I just don't think it's required. Thryduulf (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- Again, I’m not sure why the opposition to opening it up to the community. ”Works: See List of works by Bach" is still a breach of the guidelines as they currently stand. It may as well get wider input and a solid consensus for a change. - SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Next stepsedit
This discussion was promoted at WP:VPP, WT:BIOG, and WT:BLP, so this question has been open for wider community feedback. There's clearly no consensus so far that these links prohibit INFOBOXPURPOSE. These links appear to have support from the community, but perhaps there could be some clarification about their specific use in a future RFC. MyCatIsAChonk, do you want to proceed with that? You could use the village pump to workshop the language if you feel it needs more work. Nemov (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for spreading the word and ensuring people are aware of the discussion- I've posted a message at the village pump for feedback on the wording of the proposals, since the discussion here has mostly been about the merits of an RfC. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 18:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
RfC: Change INFOBOXUSE to recommend the use of infoboxesedit
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should INFOBOXUSE be changed to recommend infoboxes for particular kinds of articles? — Wug·a·po·des 20:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Proposal
- Old text: The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.
- New text
The use of infoboxes is recommended for articles on specific biological classifications, chemical elements and compounds, events, people, settlements, and similar topics with a narrow and well-defined scope. Broad topics and overview articles like philosophy, time, or Mathematics are usually better served by navigational sidebars like {{philosophy sidebar}}, {{time sidebar}}, or {{math topics sidebar}}. Stubs are usually too short to warrant an infobox, and infoboxes on them often attract edits expanding the infobox rather than expanding the article.
Where infoboxes are used, they should neither be too short nor too long. They should contain basic facts which readers would reasonably be looking for at a glance like date of birth for people or number of protons in an element. Infoboxes should not be used as repositories for any odd bit of information related to the subject because the visual clutter can make it harder for readers to find the most important information quickly. If information is important but too complex to distill into an infobox, consider using a link to a section or dedicated article on the topic. For example, instead of trying to decide which of Mozart's works should be listed in the infobox, the "works" field is a link to List of compositions by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.
- Previous discussions
| Article | Date closed | Result | Closer |
|---|---|---|---|
| Fred Sullivan | January 12, 2024 | No consensus | S Marshall |
| Georges Feydeau | November 2, 2023 | No consensus | S Marshall |
| Antonio Vivaldi | January 5, 2024 | Consensus | Dantus21 |
| Felix Mendelssohn | August 11, 2023 | Consensus | starship.paint |
| Cole Porter | August 7, 2023 | No consensus | Dantus21 |
| Richard Wagner | August 5, 2023 | Consensus | Charcoal feather |
| Colleen Ballinger | May 17, 2023 | Consensus | ScottishFinnishRadish |
| Rod Steiger | March 31, 2023 | Consensus | Nemov |
| Mozart | March 30, 2023 | Consensus | Maddy from Celeste |
| Jenny Lind | February 23, 2023 | Consensus | ScottishFinnishRadish |
| James Joyce | January 25, 2023 | Consensus | Ingenuity |
| Claude Debussy | January 18, 2023 | No consensus | Red-tailed hawk |
| Maddie Ziegler | December 31, 2022 | No consensus | Isabelle Belato |
| Tchaikovsky | January 3, 2023 | Consensus | Gusfriend |
| Laurence Olivier | November 27, 2022 | Consensus | Red-tailed hawk |
| Stanley Kubrick | November 15, 2021 | Consensus | Tol |
| Ian Fleming | March 4, 2021 | Consensus | Wugapodes |
- Previous / Related Centralized RFCs
Squashing this in at the top as reference for closing and/or future discussions, as I had (and probably other uninvolved peeps will have) no clue until, like, reading several comments in. :P Feel free to update. --slakr\ talk / 20:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_143#Infobox_RFC (May 2018)
- Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)/Archive_202#RfC_on_establishing_a_biography_infobox_guideline (June 2023)
Discussionedit
- Support My sense after surveying discussions on infoboxes over the last few years is that our guideline has not kept pace with the actual consensus in practice. For example, you notice that the (hoepfully exhaustive) list of discussions these last few years involves biographies, while articles on chemicals, settlements, and species appear to have an obvious consensus to include them where possible. To drive the point home, 3.1 million articles (nearly 50%) have infoboxes. We should document that consensus. The area of contention seems to be biographies, and particular kinds of biographies at that: subjects who are engaged in theatrical, literary, musical, or visual arts with widespread critical acclaim which makes their subjective achievements difficult to distill into a line in a box. Despite this, editors have routinely found consensus that these articles are better with an infobox than without. We should document that consensus, and hopefully reduce the time the community spends mediating a relatively niche area of controversy.The goal of the proposal isn't to require every article have an infobox, in fact, it gives specific recommendations for when an infobox shouldn't be used. The goal is to synthesize the various considerations editors raised across the discussions surveyed to provide accurate guidance for editors and help improve decision-making on true edge-cases. It is not helpful when we have guidance that is years out of date and doesn't provide actual guidance, and keeping it around just to handle a small subset of biography articles is a net negative. Let's incorporate the insights from those debates into the guidance, but as caveats to the consensus from practice that infoboxes are part of our house style. — Wug·a·po·des 20:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
The area of contention seems to be biographies, and particular kinds of biographies at that: subjects who are engaged in theatrical, literary, musical, or visual arts with widespread critical acclaim which makes their subjective achievements difficult to distill into a line in a box
- I think this is a misidentification. The logical area of contention is with any subject that is not easily summed up with key bullet points, of which certain classes of biographies are merely the most prominent.
- To me, it seems like the existence of universal consensus you describe is implicit at best, and that you are overstating its breadth. It feels a bit ambitious to assign this universal intent not only to Wikipedia, but to media at-large.
Despite this, editors have routinely found consensus that these articles are better with an infobox than without.
- They often do not, or instead the consensus is that an infobox is a fait accompli.
It is not helpful when we have guidance that is years out of date and doesn't provide actual guidance, and keeping it around just to handle a small subset of biography articles is a net negative.
- It does provide actual guidance, the guidance is that "you should use your head", like many other areas of advice on Wikipedia. If infoboxes are already so widespread as you've pointed out, why on earth do we need to (at the guideline level) mandate their use? No one needs help knowing that articles often have them, it's the first part of many articles that many new users are attracted to editing.
- This seems to me like an argument that "infoboxes are usually-to-always good for articles" cloaked as an argument that "'infoboxes are usually-to-always good' is a universal consensus". We operate based on verification and consensus here, but we also have to make arguments ourselves. There is a significant topic space where there are reasonable arguments that the use of infoboxes therein is not good or necessary. Let's be intellectually honest about that. Remsense诉 21:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Over 50% of articles have them and I provided two years worth of RfCs to support my position. — Wug·a·po·des 21:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Over 50% of articles have any number of aspects and defects. Whether you think that equates explicit normative consensus is what you are adding on top.
- Your RFCs are about individual articles, and it borders on dishonest to present them as supporting a universalizing position like this.
- Remsense诉 23:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Half our articles have this feature, and over the last year nearly every RfC we've had has resulted in a consensus to include them, but I'm being dishonest because I think that shows general support for this? Please be serious. — Wug·a·po·des 23:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- The RFCs were about individual articles, they were not answering the question "should every article have an infobox". That is a different question, it is the one we are discussing here. The least you could do is frame this RFC as establishing a categorical consensus, and not merely reflecting an existing one. Remsense诉 23:44, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- It's not about whether every article should have an infobox. The text literally includes recommendations for when to not use them. Before calling me dishonest or telling me how to frame the proposal, please read the actual proposal and characterize it accurately. — Wug·a·po·des 23:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Apologies, "most articles, according to certain broad criteria". I suppose I also really have an issue with your criterion of "narrow; well-defined scope". Infoboxes aren't really good for an article based on their scope, right? It's about if there are well-defined properties of the topic itself. A well-defined scope doesn't mean the scope is well-suited to an infobox presentation. Remsense诉 02:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Wugapodes. Remsense did not call you dishonest, that is misciting them. They merely asked you to reframe your question. And it's certainly no more uncivil than telling editors to "be serious". ——Serial Number 54129 14:06, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- It's not about whether every article should have an infobox. The text literally includes recommendations for when to not use them. Before calling me dishonest or telling me how to frame the proposal, please read the actual proposal and characterize it accurately. — Wug·a·po·des 23:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- The RFCs were about individual articles, they were not answering the question "should every article have an infobox". That is a different question, it is the one we are discussing here. The least you could do is frame this RFC as establishing a categorical consensus, and not merely reflecting an existing one. Remsense诉 23:44, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Half our articles have this feature, and over the last year nearly every RfC we've had has resulted in a consensus to include them, but I'm being dishonest because I think that shows general support for this? Please be serious. — Wug·a·po·des 23:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Over 50% of articles have them and I provided two years worth of RfCs to support my position. — Wug·a·po·des 21:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Why have you cherrypicked these specific examples for the table? Why is WP:RFCBEFORE being ignored? And why are we ignoring WP:RFCOPEN with non-neutral opinion in the statement? - SchroCat (talk) 04:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've updated the table to include information from SandyGeorgia's more up-to-date version, although there are probably still gaps. With the missing ones now included (oddly, all ones with no consensus for a box) it paints a slightly different picture than the presumed universal support for boxes in all bios. I removed the entry that wasn't about whether to include a box or not, and took out the notes, which were highly NPOV and misleading in places. Let's try and keep it neutral at the top. - SchroCat (talk) 10:59, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support. The proposed text does a great job of capturing the practice around infobox use and when and why they're useful. Having read some of the discussions about whether to provide infoboxes for people with less easily summarized accomplishments—and having written a couple of articles like that, about a diarist, an actor, and an economist—I do generally find having an infobox is better than not. Infoboxes are readable, they're accessible, and they're in use. This is a good proposed text for the manual of style to create more clarity about the way we use infoboxes, especially for newer editors learning from the manual of style. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 20:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
I don't think
Broad topics and overview articles like philosophy, time, or Mathematics are usually better served by navigational sidebars like {{philosophy sidebar}}, {{time sidebar}}, or {{math topics sidebar}}. Stubs are usually too short to warrant an infobox, and infoboxes on them often attract edits expanding the infobox rather than expanding the article.
is called for at this time. It's offtopic to the section and adds what I think is unnecessary guidance to boot. I'd even say "stubs don't need infoboxes" is categorically wrong based on my gnoming across many thousands of articles for citations, above and beyond offering something unnecessary. I'd also not like to add additional support for sidebars, which while I agree can be used in these places, as they often take up space (as at least one other location in the MOS suggests) that could be used fruitfully for other items floating right. (And I've been coming to the conclusion that sidebars should just be deleted as a category, at least in the main space.)Otherwise, I generally applaud this attempt to add support in the MOS for infoboxes. On that point, I even think there are some factors in User:RexxS/Infobox factors (and the talk page) that could be listed in addition to the ones you selected above. Izno (talk) 20:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm open to removing the note on sidebars. The intent wasn't to recommend the use of sidebars but rather contrast the kinds of articles where an infobox wouldn't be useful (because something else does a better job). Perhaps leaving the navigational sidebar bit off would be best? Say
Broad topics and overview articles like philosophy, time, or Mathematics are generally not well served by infoboxes
? I share the intuition that lots of stubs do have infoboxes, but from the discussions I've read I'm not sure if their use on stubs is something we should necessarily recommend? A big concern that comes up in the discussions linked is that infoboxes attract edits and can dwarf page content in ways that aren't helpful which is magnified on stubs or short pages. So while there are lots of stubs that do have infoboxes, I wonder whether a project-wide discussion would view that practice as something to encourage or not? I'm open to the answer being "no, it's fine, remove that line", but I thought it worth testing the consensus on.I even think there are some factors in User:RexxS/Infobox factors (and the talk page) that could be listed in addition to the ones you selected above
Indeed, I think long term there's a lot of guidance in user essays that can be incorporated into project-wide documentation. I wanted to try and synthesize the most recent discussions as a starting point and then from there branch out to more specific guidance that editors in the topic area have developed from experience. — Wug·a·po·des 21:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)- I think the general suggestion that these don't usually have an infobox is a fine spot to back off to.
I'm not sure if their use on stubs is something we should necessarily recommend
Yes, but you go further than "we probably shouldn't recommend" into "we recommend against", especially when you include some marginally negligible rationale as to why one might want to avoid infoboxes on such articles. Especially such a specious rationale as "we don't want people editing the short pages with infoboxes!". *points in the general direction of all of Wikipedia, its ethos, and whatnot* :) We will functionally never remove what might be perceived as "nuisance" edits precisely because we assume good faith, and infoboxes are no different in this regard, on any size of page.- It might be fair to describe the current use of infoboxes in short articles as "these are less likely to have infoboxes", but I don't see that as saying anything beyond "short articles are likely to have a lower quality" which is more or less the state of the wiki. Izno (talk) 23:59, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- I'm open to removing the note on sidebars. The intent wasn't to recommend the use of sidebars but rather contrast the kinds of articles where an infobox wouldn't be useful (because something else does a better job). Perhaps leaving the navigational sidebar bit off would be best? Say
- Support - aside from all the reasons given by Wugapodes that I completely agree with, infoboxes are just generally helpful. I will hold my own RfC idea until this is resolved. Also, Wugapodes, you may be interested in the table of musician bios with infoboxes that Gerda Arendt assembled last year: see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Archive 80#10 years. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 22:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Are the topics listed above given as examples or more of a definitive list? I've also seen every language abd star have an infobox. Also should maintenance tags be created? {{Missing taxobox}} exists. 115.188.117.112 (talk) 22:20, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- They're meant as examples, the general guidance being "topics with a narrow and well-defined scope" which I think covers languages and celestial objects as well as roads and other things I can't think of off the top of my head. {{Missing taxobox}} doesn't seem used on any articles, and I think maintenance templates would be more trouble than they're worth. If it's not worth going the extra step to add an infobox, then it's probably not important enough to warrant a maintenance tag. — Wug·a·po·des 22:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- {{Missing taxobox}} does get used on articles; I add it myself on a somewhat regular basis. It's just that there is no backlog of existing articles that need a taxobox and which don't have one, and it's uncommon for a new taxon article to be created without a taxobox (and rare to make it through NPP without a taxobox being added). Articles that do get tagged with missing taxobox are usually resolved in a matter of hours, and at any given time there are usually no articles with a missing taxobox template. But it does get used. Plantdrew (talk) 20:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- They're meant as examples, the general guidance being "topics with a narrow and well-defined scope" which I think covers languages and celestial objects as well as roads and other things I can't think of off the top of my head. {{Missing taxobox}} doesn't seem used on any articles, and I think maintenance templates would be more trouble than they're worth. If it's not worth going the extra step to add an infobox, then it's probably not important enough to warrant a maintenance tag. — Wug·a·po·des 22:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 22:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support - This is a reasonable proposal that mirrors the community's position on infoboxes. Thanks for the work putting this together. Nemov (talk) 22:51, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Support The current wording is archaic (added in 2011; courtesy ping @WhatamIdoing) and no longer representative of the common practice. Infoboxes are generally beneficial and should be included if there is enough information. InfiniteNexus (talk) 22:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping. Wikipedia:Consensus can change, and if it has (which this RFC will determine), then I've no objection whatsoever to that being changed, nor any special insight into what a new version should say. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:56, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. This would blatantly violate the ArbCom compromise. It also appears that canvassing may be going on here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
- Where is your evidence that canvassing has taken place? InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC) Zdroj:https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Infoboxes
Text je dostupný za podmienok Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License 3.0 Unported; prípadne za ďalších podmienok. Podrobnejšie informácie nájdete na stránke Podmienky použitia.
Analytika
Antropológia
Aplikované vedy
Bibliometria
Dejiny vedy
Encyklopédie
Filozofia vedy
Forenzné vedy
Humanitné vedy
Knižničná veda
Kryogenika
Kryptológia
Kulturológia
Literárna veda
Medzidisciplinárne oblasti
Metódy kvantitatívnej analýzy
Metavedy
Metodika
Antropológia
Aplikované vedy
Bibliometria
Dejiny vedy
Encyklopédie
Filozofia vedy
Forenzné vedy
Humanitné vedy
Knižničná veda
Kryogenika
Kryptológia
Kulturológia
Literárna veda
Medzidisciplinárne oblasti
Metódy kvantitatívnej analýzy
Metavedy
Metodika
Text je dostupný za podmienok Creative
Commons Attribution/Share-Alike License 3.0 Unported; prípadne za ďalších
podmienok.
Podrobnejšie informácie nájdete na stránke Podmienky
použitia.
www.astronomia.sk | www.biologia.sk | www.botanika.sk | www.dejiny.sk | www.economy.sk | www.elektrotechnika.sk | www.estetika.sk | www.farmakologia.sk | www.filozofia.sk | Fyzika | www.futurologia.sk | www.genetika.sk | www.chemia.sk | www.lingvistika.sk | www.politologia.sk | www.psychologia.sk | www.sexuologia.sk | www.sociologia.sk | www.veda.sk I www.zoologia.sk