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There's pretty much a consensus not to have them for each individual storm, but they are still there. Should we get rid of the individual tables, and instead add a season total ACE for the season infobox? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

yeah lets get rid of the tables - Theres already a bit for the total ace on the main Hurricane infobox Jason Rees (talk) 13:38, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion either way. ACE is generally useless, but if we were to remove the tables from the season articles, one could argue that doing such would compromise the comprehensiveness of a page. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 14:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I like the season table. What is the argument against it? Plasticup ^T/C 15:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The only independent source (i.e. one that doesn't specifically study ACE) that places importance on ACE is wikipedia. Objectively speaking, it's not a notable statistic, and I don't understand why we have a table of that when we don't include tables of storm duration, strength, IKE, or whatever else. It certainly doesn't deserve its own section in the season articles, and removing it completely would not weaken them at all. — jdorje (talk) 21:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

My strongest objection to those tables is that they're basically original synthesis, as they're usually not referenced, nor kept up to date with official records. Most NCDC season reports have ACE stats that differ from ours, and I'd feel more comfortable either citing their numbers, or not adding those numbers at all. (Although I realize that they're good content to fill old season articles, which lack information lost to time...) Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 06:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

What if we were to add a little ACE box to the hurricane templates and get rid of the ACE sections??? User:Itfc+canes=me ^{Talk Contributions} 22:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Since ACE information is popping up in quite a few storm articles nowadays, it's probably time to decide whether or not we want it. I'm in favor of it, as it's only a couple sentences, and more information never hurts. Thoughts? –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 14:40, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I am also in favour of using it in Storm Articles but if we do we MUST use it like this:

"The Joint Typhoon Warning Center's messured the Ace at A, whilst the RSMC Tokyo measured the Ace at B."

Jason Rees (talk) 14:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

The only problem is getting a reliable source to back it up. I personally am split between keeping it and removing it. If there is a reliable source that backs up the Best track info, then we should keep it, otherwise it's OR and therefore has to be removed....Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:03, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I oppose using it. We've discussed before that the stat means very little for each storm. Scientists and officials rarely mention the ACE of certain storms, and more often only use it for the entire season. In previous discussions, it was described as original synthesis. I noticed this problem on Hurricane Hernan's current FAC, where the author cited the TCR for Hernan's ACE value. I completely disagree with doing that, particularly since the next sentence cited the NCDC page with a different value (which was its operational ACE). In short, I believe we should remove every mention of ACE for individual storms, and leave it only for the season totals, when available. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

ACE is not OR, though, it is a simple calculation. It does not require a class in Statistics to figure it out. Potapych (talk) 15:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

But there is no non-wiki source to really back it up despite being simple calculations. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if it weren't OR, it still doesn't add much to storm articles in general. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 18:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

True, it is mainly just to make small articles a bit longer. I just followed the outline for Tropical Storm Erick (2007) to create Tropical Storm Karina (2008) (both extremely short lived storms) to add length to the article. But now it may be becoming a problem due to a lack of sources.

There are, however, reliable sources to cite the ACE, the NCDC seasonal chart as an example. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 18:44, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

That's the operational data though. The problem is citing the best track ACE data since there are changes between the two. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Whether it's OR or not in its simplest form is debatable, but I agree that it's original synthesis. The sources never say plainly that storm A had an ACE of X. And furthermore, they are a fairly useless statistic that (IIRC) no scientist ever uses for each individual storm. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

What about the storms that had notable ACE ratings, like Ivan? –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 19:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It definitely is one source, though how to cite it is debatable. Original synthesis occurs with multiple sources. Potapych (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it adds to the season articles. Eastern Pacific season ACE values can swing wildly while maintaining a pretty consistent number of named storms from year to year. Citing ACE highlights the true level of activity and the importance of El Nino in that basin. This is still important in the Atlantic, though slightly less so. Potapych (talk) 23:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Good point, there probably should be an exception for storms with record high ACE's. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a given, but for that we are only talking about 2-3 storms. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:47, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Right, so unless the storm has a record high ACE, the ACE will remain a season statistics section only thing? Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for that, and for clarification that means only having the seasonal ACE value, which we have for the Atlantic from 1851-2007 already (HURDAT has it). ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Time to clear out some ACE values in some articles. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Shall we wait for more people to voice their opinions? Only a few people have commented, and for such a big decision maybe we should wait another day or so. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Wait, hit a wall with Tropical Storm Karina (2008). There is a fair amount of info on it in the statistics section, and I'm not sure what to do with it. (got to stop the impulse), yea, probably best to wait for more input. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not hitting a wall if there is legitimately no more information outside of the storm history. If ACE is just used as a space filler, then it's not needed. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

HURDAT link for seasonal data - this link has the seasonal ACE values, which will be the source for the seasonal totals. Also, if the NHC happens to mention monthly ACE totals (as it did in the Karina article), then that's fair game. For that article, only the first two sentences of that paragraph would have to be removed, if we agreed to it. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:02, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Can we get more feedback on this? I see a user just added ACE to a NIO season article, which certainly doesn't even use ACE. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see it removed from all of the current season articles esspecially the WPAC 08 as it is a pain to update Jason Rees (talk) 02:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you agree to removing it from the individual storm articles? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

It depends from storm to storm. At the edges of the spectrum (i.e. very low almost none or very high >40) a note about it should be made. Otherwise it shouldn't be included since it is the "norm", exceptions do appear as usual, Katrina could be a good example of an exception since it is one of the most important article and that bit of info could be helpful with statistical information on the storm. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Why should the bottom of the barrel get the numbers? If a storm lasted six to twelve hours, I think we should just say "The storm was the weakest/shortest lasting storm of the season." I don't see a need to explain the confusing ACE system. Likewise with the high ones, chances are they either set some records, or were the strongest/longest lasting storm of the season. There's enough information in the Katrina article already; I don't think we should confuse the reader by introducing another term in an already full article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that we need to get rid off it completly as it is hard to verify and update. Jason Rees (talk) 04:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Currently there is a bit of an IRC discussion (gasp) between some of the project members. There is a rough agreement that ACE should not be used outside of the NHC basins, primarily due to inconsistencies with the warning centers. That's it, though. Also discussed was whether or not to remove from the individual pages, but there wasn't an agreement. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone else want to respond? The usage of ACE currently is close to being decided. Would anyone be opposed to removing all mentions (except perhaps extreme ones) of ACE for individual storms in the sub-articles, and if so, why? Likewise, would anyone be opposed to removing the individual values from the season articles, and if so, why? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

The palpable discrepancies between the official designations for United States hurricanes and HURDAT are adversely affecting articles' accuracy. For example, I furnished an article on the 1949 Florida hurricane. Officially, the list of United States hurricanes lists a Category 3 impact in the state of Florida, but the HURDAT file cites a maximum sustained wind of 150 mph (130 knots) at landfall. I produced a verifiable article with numerous sources, several of which supported the Category 3 classification. Subsequently, an anonymous contributor altered the 1949 Atlantic hurricane season article and reverted the Category 3 values for the maximum sustained winds. The person utilized HURDAT's winds and listed Category 4 winds for the Florida hurricane, as well as a Texas tropical cyclone that exhibited similar list/HURDAT discrepancies. The Texas hurricane is assessed as a Category 4 landfall (115 knots) in HURDAT, but the official list does not indicate winds higher than Category 2 strength in Texas. This conundrum leads to the question of accuracy: which source is more "authentic"? Wikipedia should yield reliable, viable, and truthful information.

The HURDAT database precedes the official list, which implies that the list is updated. Originally, HURDAT was conceived in the 1960s, while the first list of United States impacts was published in the 1970s. HURDAT contains numerous errors, since it has not been reanalyzed beyond 1920. A new paper from the reanalysis project discusses these issues. The official list states that the United States impacts are grouped by "the highest Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale impact in the United States based upon estimated maximum sustained surface winds produced at the coast." Therefore, a person gains the impression that the impacts are based on the modern Saffir-Simpson Scale standards, which utilize one-minute sustained winds (as opposed to central pressures) as the sole qualification of hurricane strength. However, the reanalysis paper notes the following facts:

"Another methodological concern is that the winds in HURDAT just before a hurricane landfall in the United States often do not match the assigned Saffir–Simpson hurricane scale. C. J. Neumann and J. Hope developed the first digital HURDAT records with 6-hourly position and maximum wind estimates in the late 1960s (Jarvinen et al. Zdroj:https://en.wikipedia.org?pojem=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tropical_cyclones/Archive_18
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