This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

The discussion about Cheat Code Central brings up some points. The author of that article based his writing on premier game sites like GameSpot (see also IGN, Gamefaqs). However, on examining these articles it looks like they have some serious issues with cruft: needless detail in explaining each site's specific implementation of generic features (news, reviews, forums, etc), lists of non-notable staff, and lists of awards handed out by the site. These all seem questionable to me. WP:NOTGUIDE has a pretty good summary of how to approach these items. Would anyone object to cleaning this stuff out of the aforementioned articles? Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

He's listed as part of this project so I thought I'd give a heads up Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Doug_Bell_(2nd_nomination)replacing notice removed by the person trying to have the article deletedLegoTech·(t)·(c) 02:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This started as a disagreement at List of songs in Rock Band where I am now trying to get some input at the articles talk page. The basic question is, what counts as a reliable source for inclusion in DLC lists? THe basic problem here is a section of this article contains an unreliable leaked list. I think there should be some general level of standards for what DLC information is contained in its respective article and at what point it gets added to the article (when it is leaked? When it is officially announced? When it is officially released?) Any input on this would be greatly appreciated, and if discussion could be directed 1, that would be great. Thanks! Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 17:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a very good question, and something that I've always wondered myself. Most commonly I see the issue in music game articles (but that's only because those are the ones I frequent more than others). In the case of a music game DLC article, here are the common causes for people including a song that has not been confirmed by the game creators.

• Artist/Group announces inclusion. This is especially popular right now with Guitar Hero: World Tour, as a number of artists have come forward and said they will have songs included in "future titles". There was some contention in mid-May when Disturbed's website annouced that two songs would be offered as DLC, but the two tracks it listed differed from the Best Buy annoucement. My opinion is that the artist or group would be considered the ultimate authority on their music, and thus should be considered reliable.
• Magazine reports inclusion. Most noteably in List of songs in Rock Band, a debate started regarding the validitiy of OXM's list of songs to be released in March. The list was included when first found in Febuary. Not all content from the list was released. It wasn't until June when the content was finally removed. This is one that would apply to more than just music games, as magazines continually post updates and rumors regarding upcoming content. Here too, I feel that a magazine should be considered reliable until proven otherwise. A gaming magazine such as OXM, PSM, NP, or EGM is not going to make up information and run with it. A story that's made it to publishing, they felt they had a reliable source for it. I feel it's acting in bad faith to assume that a magazine article is unreliable (provided it's sources are good).
• Ads. This is probably the final "motivator" for this discussion. A few days ago an MTV2 commericial aired for a new song pack for Rock Band, it included screencaps which contained song titles not currently available. Of these, three included the words: "NOT READY FOR TEST" or something of that nature. There has been no official statement either way as there was when the original list of DLC was leaked in February. Here is where I don't understand the reluctance. An advertisement is constructed in partnership with the creators. Any footage included is pulled directly from resources provided to the team that assmebles the ad. In the gaming world, promotional videos are constantly referred to as reliable sources for the inclusion of new characters, levels, and content in general. Case in point: Guitar Hero: World Tour, which cites the use of songs in advertisements. While it happens on occasion that content not meant to be revealed slips out, this is different from a leak as it's not being dug out or "stolen" by a sly observer, but rather distributed nationally by the creator's themselves. Whatever info included (intentional or not) should be considered fair game.
• "Leaks". This is probably most noteable in the Rock Band list again. A DLC file was found to contain a number of song titles that were both in and not-in the game. Since the discovery, a number of songs have been released that were on the list. Here I can see the argument for disclusion (is that even a word). People can claim "leaks" and sources are usually not very reliable. But here I feel that a "leak" should be treated in a manner befitting it's nature. If I claim to have learned of a new XBLA game being released because I have a friend who works at MSFT, that's hardly anything reliable. But if I can point to a document that was discovered (and is confirmed to exist by the source itself) than my claim does become reliable in that instance. Though in the future I shouldn't get a pass because I was right that one time previously.

This is all just my personal opinion on the overall issue of what is reliable and what isn't. Because in the past I have noticed some inconsistencies which cause confusion amoung regular editors as well as casual passersby. -- TRTX ^{T / C} 19:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

If a leak gets onto a news page, of a commonly accepted gaming source, then the source establishes that the leak occurred and was notable enough to be published. This is distinct from speculation about whether or not the list is accurate. Thus, it is acceptable to discuss the leak but not necessarily to use the leak as a source to verify itself. Say for example a book's author does an interview, and in the interview he says that his book has received perfect reviews (on e.g. Metacritic). Assuming the interview is reliable (did not make up or misrepresent the author's comments), then it is verifiably true that the author made this statement. However, it does not necessarily mean that the content of his statement is true. That would require independent verification. The article can say "these songs are expected to be in the DLC, according to a leaked song list" but not "these songs will be in the DLC". As long as the reader is sufficiently informed about the status of these songs. Ham Pastrami (talk) 23:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I can speak specifically for the Rock Band list. All three examples (leaked list, OXM, MTV2 commercial) have been reported on by reliable sources. For the two that have been included so far, we only say what the reliable sources do: that there was a leak, etc. regarding this content. That is not the same as saying that the content will be coming out. I don't see any sort of RS or OR issue if we only report as the sources do. This is especially true in the case of the leaked list, which is made more reliable by Harmonix's press release regarding it and the fact that it has been remarkably accurate to date. Oren0 (talk) 01:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I was scouting through the GH articles this morning and came across multiple edits made to Guitar Hero: World Tour based on information found here. This is material sourced from a "leaked" survey, which has been included in the World Tour article under no contest from other editors. This is the kind of inconsistancy which leads to much confusion and conflict between editors. How is this leak (a supposed survey) any more noteable/reliable than an actual commericial? -- TRTX ^{T / C} 12:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It has a significant number of google hits, but they're entirely from gaming-oriented sources (Moby, IGDA, GameFAQs, to name some). As such, this seems to be more of a jargon word than a part of English vocabulary, so I'm on the fence. Is this the preferred phrase to describe a list of games that a person has worked on? (If not, what is?) Ham Pastrami (talk) 10:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd go for "published works" instead. User:Krator (t c) 10:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The word "ludography" is used for a list of game of a particular designer, but I've seen it used generally in the context of board games. It's probably safest to use "published works" as suggested (or something similar). --Craw-daddy | T | 10:55, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Gameography is not a word. It's just a made-up word resembling "filmography" and "bibliography". I remember changing it to "games" instead: 2, but "published works" works well too. The Prince (talk) 23:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

To be exact, it is a word. Anything is a word. But it's recent and not commonly used compared to more established terms. "Published works" is good; the introduction and context is enough for the reader to know that we're talking about video games. Kariteh (talk) 07:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not in any dictionary, so no it's not a word. The Prince (talk) 08:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Anything that is spoken or written is a word. Even invented words like, say, "shmurpal", can be considered a word (an invented word, precisely). Dictionaries describe established words though. Note that this is just a comment; I'm not trying to start a huge debate or something. "Published works" is fine. Kariteh (talk) 08:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know where you get this from, but the bottom line is that "gameography" should not be used in articles. The Prince (talk) 09:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Case settled. It's an invented word, a neologism of questionable significance or even importance. Published works is fine, moving on. Chan Yin Keen | ^UserTalk _Contribs 09:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

3 Could people from this project consider helping out on the simple.wiki to expand the articles, as well as create a couple templates for the project (or simply confirm if I can just take the code for the Template:vgproj and the vguserbox? Thanks. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

You should be able to reuse the templates etc under the GFDL. Let me know if you need a hand with template work. Gazimoff ^Write_Read 23:00, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Under that license wouldn't history have to be copied as well? JohnnyMrNinja 10:11, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

While it's not terribly relevant on the project, the pile of lawsuits they've been receiving may result in some significant damages, perhaps they may even go the way of 3D0.

1. Itagaki's lawsuit's been known for a while - unpaid bonuses for Dead or Alive 4.
2. According to 1UP, more than three-dozen Team Ninja employees left, and joined the class action lawsuit for unpaid bonuses.
3. And most recently, the two top executives of Tecmo's labor union are joining suit for unpaid wages, claiming they falsified documents and accounting procedures in regards to employment statuses, overtime pay, and more. Famitsu added that Tecmo's violated a "ton" of employment contracts and regulations, and did not pay employees for working on public holidays or working overtime.

So, just thought it was a matter of significance that Tecmo may become belly up. - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... it's possible that we could expand on the information already in the Tecmo article, but per WP:CRYSTAL, we can't speculate about what'll happen to the company. Still, interesting to note - thanks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

This article will probably get deleted, I'm just not sure if it deserves some mention in the Football Manager 2008 article. xenocidic (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

{{Video game controversy}}, List of controversial video games - Is it just me or is this an impossibly huge scope? JohnnyMrNinja 21:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if it's impossibly huge, but it sure could use cleanup. Individual games and genres should definitely not be listed in the navbox, as controversy spans the entire domain of VG at some level. At least for the time being, I'd remove those and replace it with a link to the list article. This at least limits the POV to one article and reduces the navbox to a more reasonable size. There also needs to be a review on the "Major figures" listed in the navbox, as potentially every notable politician has made some sort of statement directed at or affecting video games as an entertainment medium. The list article for the games, if well-defined, could work, but based on other lists of (insert broad criteria) games, I also share some skepticism there, especially since the main video game controversy article is in need of improvement. Finally, I'd consider renaming the navbox to "Video game regulation", as the only topic that is necessarily about controversy is the controversy article itself. A "video game controversy" navbox should reference actual controversies like the ones listed at Video game controversy#Publicized incidents, but these would need their own articles first. Ham Pastrami (talk) 00:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite sure this article shouldn't even be on Wikipedia in the first place: DSO Clan --DanielPharos (talk) 23:50, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

it was speedily deleted per WP:CSD criterion A7. Gazimoff ^Write_Read 00:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Boy, I guess speedy does indeed mean speedy around here! Thanks! :D --DanielPharos (talk) 00:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Age of Empires will be appearing on the Main Page on 19 June. If some people could watchlist it and help fight the inevitable vandalism (as well as any other cleanup needed between now and then, etc.) it'd be appreciated. Cheers, giggy _(:O) 10:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I've got it watchlisted now. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 11:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Me too. Best of luck! Gazimoff ^Write_Read 00:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The user Cliché Online is currently going through a large number of articles, adding resolutions to them. However, a problem arose when he edited the Haze (video game) article - the creative lead has stated the native resolution is 576p, but the PS3 upscales it to 720p. I pointed this out to Cliché, and the discussion both on (Talk:Haze and his talk page) remained civil (despite him completely misunderstanding the concept of native resolution), until he started accusing me and another user of being sockpuppets.
Anyway, my point is, shouldn't the original, native, resolution be included on articles, if there's a source about it? (this is currently true for Halo 3 and GTA IV). Much Thanks! Fin©™ 15:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, wait, I'm just after seeing that the resolution field in the infobox expands to "Native resolution". Cool. Thanks! Fin©™ 16:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I left a warning for Cliche and a message on the Haze talk with my own take on the situation. He's clearly stepping over the line in his responses, but he also seems to be confusing the issue as you mentioned. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 22:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. There is a subtle but important note - the resolution field refers to the native resolution the game runs at, not the resolution that the console upscales to before video output. Were this to be the case, there would be little point in including the resolution field. I will have a look at the {{infobox vg}} template and see if the documentation can be improved to clarify this point. Many thanks, Gazimoff ^Write_Read 15:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Gazimoff. I just pointed out in the article talk that it would be impractical for us to list every possible display resolution for every game on every console, because at least on the 360 (and I think it's true for the PS3 as well, but not sure), the game will display at whatever resolution you've selected as your output mode - it'll always upscale or downscale as necessary, and the only major difference in most games is whether it needs to display in 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio. The supported resolutions should be listed (if they're important) in the article on the console itself, and we shouldn't be repeating them in each game. If there's a notable reason to list the native, pre-display resolution (like with Halo 3), then it should be included - otherwise, I say we just axe the field altogether for most games. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 15:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I've identified a deficiency in the documentation for {{infobox VG}} and provided additional information. I agree that the resolution is only critical if it adds further information about how the game engine renders the scene. If it doesn't, or if the engine can adapt to handle different native resolutions (as most PC games do), then it's unimportant. Hope this helps.Gazimoff ^Write_Read 00:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Clarified it somewhat - you had 16:10 for wide-screen TVs and computer monitors. For wide TVs it's 16:9 (1920x1080), 16:10 for wide computer monitors (1920x1200). :) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 01:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Ach, so close! Gazimoff ^Write_Read 01:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Randomran is trying to delete Category:Trading simulator video games. He argues that the category is small and shows no room for growth. First of all, many of the articles are about series of games of multiple titles. Secondly, there is a sub-category with 48 games. I would hardly call that small. Thirdly, I have a list of games(4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11) that could get added to the category once articles have been written for them. Finally, there's no reason that the category could not show any growth. Developers could release games within the genre at any time. SharkD (talk) 00:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for soliciting more discussion. I'm proposing a merge, since most of this small category qualifies under business simulation games. Check out the discussion page. Randomran (talk) 00:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Found some more: 18 Wheels of Steel series (5 games total). Also: 12,13,14,15 and two (16,17) more sites besides MobyGames18) which categorize games in this fashion. SharkD (talk) 02:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem isn't notability or research. The problem is overcategorization, overlap, and the size of the category. Randomran (talk) 17:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Should this template be renamed like Template:VGtitle, or perhaps merged? Kariteh (talk) 07:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to me, and shouldn't be that hard to change as there's only a handful of articles that use {{FFspinoff}}. I would suggest raising it at WP:FF first though, just to make sure. Gazimoff ^Write_Read 12:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Last time I asked WP:FF about Template:FFtitle no one answered, so I assume these kind of changes are okay. Kariteh (talk) 16:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

In that case, I'd suggest going for it. Once done, please raise a TfD for the unused template, explaining that it is now redundant. Best of luck, Gazimoff ^Write_Read 18:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The user PlayFreebirdNow has been constantly adding a list of unlockable armours to the Iron Man (video game) for the past two days. He has been reverted by myself and two other users, after which he became uncivil, despite being given reasons (wp not a gameguide and wp:gametrivia), resulting in his blocking yesterday. Anyway, once unblocked today, he continued on his merry way, readding the info to the article. I'm currently at my 3R limit (I think), and he has consistently ignored warnings and explanations given on his talk page. What's next? Thanks! Fin©™ 23:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd say take it to WP:ANI or at least what's next on the list in dispute resolution. Chan Yin Keen | ^UserTalk _Contribs 01:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like this user has been blocked for edit warring for a week. If the problem persists post block, come back and let us know. Gazimoff ^Write_Read 11:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we should start a Madden NFL Taskforce. I would be willing to coordinate this. Madden is an extremely popular game that has a couple of articles under it's scope. It is probably the most popular current sports game. And besides, I love it.  Mm40 (talk | contribs)  10:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

If you have about five people who feel the same, and you need some space (read: project page) to coordinate, go for it. It's the people that matter, not the topic per se. User:Krator (t c) 10:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Just thought I'd hash it out here before going to bot requests, but what would people think of a bot that did the following:

• Added articles within certain categories like Category:2001 video games to without infoboxes Category:Articles needing a VG infobox or somesuch
• Added a {{vgproj}} to the talkpage of any article that was in a video game-related category, or had a vg infobox/stub template/etc.

Does this sound useful/feasible? JohnnyMrNinja 16:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

• If you're going to parse through on infoboxes, then you should also have the bot reformat the wikicode (won't affect the screen) as to have clean formatting for each parameter (line up equal signs). --MASEM 16:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

And perhaps make it so it changes all variations of {{vgproj}} and the infobox to a standard, consistent name? --.:Alex:. 16:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

{{WikiProject Video games}} please, I get annoyed that people keep changing the actual template link to one of the redirects. And I do hope that you don't reformat the infoboxen with wasteful space characters, I'd re-edit those right out of every article I touch. The code is not difficult to read. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 18:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Masem about the space characters. It doesn't really "cost" anything to have spaces, so I'm not sure what is being wasted, along the lines that WP is not paper and a few dozen bytes won't change the feasible article size, which is measured in thousand-byte units. The improvement in readability is well worth any perceived cost in wastefulness. If the fields become long enough, e.g. multiple release dates, multiple platforms, ref tags with URLs, etc. it makes a huge difference. The thing about the banner template is that I don't think anyone really enjoys typing out the whole name, which is why the redirects are more common. Although it is strange if they are going out of their way to change the template name as that is just extra work for no reason. However, I'd recommend that the canonical name be changed (shortened) so that people manually adding the banner will be more likely to use that instead of a redirect. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with using space characters to line up the equal signs. Just because someone who has been on Wikipedia since 2007 has no problem with reading the code doesn't mean newcomers can't have problems. Editing articles should be as (new-)user-friendly as possible. Kariteh (talk) 09:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't, but for obvious reason you want to make a page as lean as possible. I agree that removing -most- spaces from code is a good thing. I do not agree in removing spaces or code, or changing the way code is laid out if there's a visible change to the article doing so, if the only reason is to lean the code. The article itself comes first and the optimization of that article directly second. It's also more than acceptable to ask editors to have some understanding of HTML and wiki code before they start changing it... that's just common sense, if someone is unwilling to learn how the code works enough to read it as source then they're not going to be much help. Nevertheless the community is available for any technical shortcomings if someone wants to contribute but doesn't know how. And how does my having been here a year make me some kind of elite? I still get called a newbie. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 11:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Following up on the (far) above thread, would there be anyone within the project that would be willing/interested to make a Video Game Project bot? It would mostly be adding/maintaining/formatting project templates, but I'm certain anal-retentive vgproj editors can come up with lists of tasks that would be easier for a bot to do. If not, I'll bring it to bot requests. JohnnyMrNinja 08:06, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to do random AWB tasks relating to the project (Giggabot) on request, for what it's worth. giggy _(:O) 08:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Awesome! I've brought it to User talk:Giggabot. JohnnyMrNinja 09:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Oops. I think the mistake I've made is clear. Apologies. I'll take the talk to User_talk:Giggy instead. JohnnyMrNinja 09:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Now tagging stuff in User:JohnnyMrNinja/vgcats, feel free to add to it. giggy _(:O) 10:16, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

There's an interesting case of reliable sources quoting from unreliable sources at Final Fantasy XIII and Final Fantasy Versus XIII. Basically, the timeline of events is:

• Famitsu publishes an interview with Tetsuya Nomura -> reliable
• Someone called Duckroll posts an erroneous translation of the interview on the NeoGAF forums, stating that Versus XIII has been put on hold -> unreliable
• Fansites like 19 report Duckroll's erroneous information -> unreliable
• Reputable sources like GameSpot and IGN also report the information -> ???
• Square Enix issues an official statement to debunk the false information -> reliable
• Reputable sources and fansites alike report Square Enix's press release

So in the end, is the event worth mentioning in Wikipedia since Square Enix issued a statement to debunk the false information, or is it not worth mentioning since it started as a mere mistranslated quote in a forum and since GameSpot and IGN reported it but apparently didn't check to see if the translation was correct? Kariteh (talk) 10:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I would delete the whole mess and write from Famitsu (or whatever correct information it had from a reliable site). Reliable sources do make mistakes and we do not have to hold them to it. Jappalang (talk) 10:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Would someone wise in the way of templates please take a look at my question on Template talk:WikiProject Video games? Thanks. JohnnyMrNinja 10:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright, the universe of Blue Dragon is huge. I want to know if I should add some more info on the universe. Would it be okay if I make a List of Blue Dragon Monsters article or anything like that?Gears Of War 15:44, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Strongly recommend not creating a list of monsters. Blue Dragon may be "huge" but it's not yet at Pokemon/Zelda/Mario levels of franchise that would necessitate the possibility of a common enemies list. If there isn't one already, you can start a separate wiki (at Wikia for free or elsewhere) for this type of information. --MASEM 16:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Just letting you know that Metal Gear Solid is currently having a Peer review and I would love some more feedback on it (it's also needs a copy edit) as I'm trying to get it back to FA status. Thanks for any help. Buc (talk) 20:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll have a full review up probably by tomorrow. Since you're looking at FA, I'll review as if it were an FAC. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 20:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been working a bit on Midtown Madness of late. I know it needs a screenshot, lead expansion, and other minor cleanup. Anyways, my question is if there is enough gameplay information, or if I should add more (and if yes, what more can be said?).

And on that note, are there are any places to look for information that I may have overlooked? giggy _(:O) 04:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I see no reason there needs to be any more lengthy of a gameplay section. Heck, get rid of the vehicle lists and it willprobably be better :-) --MASEM 04:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

See Iridion 3D for an example of a short, featured, game article. If you're asking yourself what more can be said, as opposed to what more needs to be said, you've probably said enough. Nifboy (talk) 05:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a good example, thanks for that. I meant to ask what more needs to be said, though I imagine there isn't any of that either. giggy _(:O) 06:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Administrators be advised, the article is undergoing repeated vandalism by a couple of IPs. What's strange is that there was a semi-protection icon on the page but no actual protection. Is this article suppose to be protected or was it revoked? --AeronPrometheus (talk) 04:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no protection on the article; it expired on June 18. (The template that puts up the protection lock icon is only that, a template - but itself not responsible for protection). --M;ASEM 04:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a bot that removes that template, but it's sometimes slow, I think. In any case, reprotection may be warranted, but in the meantime I've watchlisted. giggy _(:O) 05:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest renaming Business simulation game to Economic simulation game. Economic simulation games encompass games where you control the economy of a state or faction. I don't think these can really be thought of as "businesses". It also encompasses games where you trade as a free-lance trader or privateer. The term is quite common, probably as common as business simulation game if you don't take into account academic or professional sources. SharkD (talk) 00:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The article and category were recently renamed based on reliable research and consensus. Economic simulation game led to government simulation games and city-building games being thrown in, and it became an indiscriminate category. You should also wait to see if "trading simulation game" is merged into business simulation before you start proposing a change in scope. Randomran (talk) 01:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the consensus for the category move was arrived at without significant discussion20 and only one source was provided for the naming of the article/genre. Are we sure that the sourced name is actually dealing with the same scope as we would like to approach the article from? Do we want to maintain separate articles for government simulations, city building, etc. and are those sub-genres also distinguished/given by the same source? If not, it may be that we are relying too heavily on a source that does not accommodate our needs and it is not just re-wording but re-defining the context of various articles. I'm not saying it's the wrong move, necessarily. I do agree that there is a lot of sprawl with regard to the various flavors of sim/tycoon game, and the effort to reorganize is well-founded, but I think we would benefit from hearing more suggestions about what to do with these articles. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. The only other discussion of the move can be found here and here where the user expresses reservation regarding the move, citing some of the reasons I mentioned. Further, in the second link Randomran goes on about some gobbledygook, saying that there are zero references to the term "Economic simulation". Let's take a look at the sources listed in Business simulation game:

1. Review - IGN: Trevor Chan's Capitalism II - The author uses the terms "business sim" and "economic sim" interchangeably.
2. IGN: Joan of Arc Interview - First of all, a first-party source (the devloper) on a single game can't be used as an authority on an entire genre. Secondly, the author of the article (the reviewer) uses the term "economic gaming".
3. IGN: Air Bucks - IGN specifically lists this game under the genre "Economic Simulation".
4. Review - IGN: The Movies - Once again, the game is listed under the genre "Economic Simulation" by IGN.
5. IGN: Big Biz Tycoon Ships - same genre as above.

So, of the seven references Randomran himself provided, five of them are examples of where the term "Economic simulation" is used. Four of them catagorize them in this way, giving them larger scope. This hardly backs up his assertion that there are "zero references". I hate to see Randomran beguiling and misleading people with the voice of authority on a subject like he mislead User:Sven Eberhardt. This isn't the first time Randomran has made bold claims without backing them up with sources21,22,23. --SharkD (talk) 02:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit: And another one here: 24. SharkD (talk) 00:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, assume a little good faith? Why are you so intently focused on me, instead of the discussion we're having? The business simulation article is supported by the most reliable of sources. Randomran (talk) 17:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but your habit of blowing things out of proportion is exasperating. SharkD (talk) 07:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

You have a funny way of demonstrating proportion. ^^^^^^^^^ Just saying. Randomran (talk) 18:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

What is that even supposed to mean? SharkD (talk) 22:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Just that a simple rename proposal erupted into a lengthy attempt at character assassination. A sense of proportion would focus on whether to rename. So let's do that. Randomran (talk) 22:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's stay constructive and focus on where to go from here. First, I think addressing this on an article-by-article basis is a mistake, as that will only encourage inconsistencies in how the topic is approached, leading to both content redundancy and content forking. So first let's determine which articles are related. These are the articles/genres that I think need to be reviewed. For reference, see List of simulation video games.

• Business simulation game (formerly Economic simulation game)
• City-building game
• Construction and management simulation
• God game
• Government simulation game
• Life simulation game
• Social simulation game
• Space combat simulator (merged Space trading and combat simulator)

Categories:

• Category:Biological simulation video games
• Category:Business simulation games
• Category:City building games
• Category:God games
• Category:Government simulation video games
• Category:Life simulation games
• Category:Social simulation video games
• Category:Space trading and combat simulators
• Category:Trading simulator video games

Additions? Subtractions? The immediate problem that I can see is that words like "business", "city", "god", "government", "life", "society" and "space" are nouns that describe themes, not gameplay. On the other hand, "build/construct", "manage", and "trade" are verbs that describe what the player does in-game. IMO, we should structure these articles by determining how construction, management, and trade are related and unrelated. Ham Pastrami (talk) 10:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

You should keep in mind that the list of genres is not mutually-exclusive. Looking at Template:Video game genre as well as the categories you listed one sees that the genres are nested. I don't have a particular problem with the way this nesting is done, as long as the it is done consistently across the different namespaces (i.e. template, article, category). I don't have a problem with creating sub-categories, as long as the sub-categories belong to the proper parent categories. SharkD (talk) 17:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

A significant problem with the video game genre articles is that they end up being a two or three sentence dictionary definitions followed by a list of games. It's easy to find someone who says "Galactic Muderers is a space shooter game" and make a new "space shooter" article, or "Home on the range is a cowboy simulator" and make a new "cowboy simulator" article. But there's often no reliable research that can go into detail about the genre. Why? Because it's just a term to define a narrow theme, not a genre. Really, it's the kind of information that should be merged into an existing, synonymous article. "There are many different kinds of shooters, and some take place in space such as Galactic Murderers." "There are also city-building simulators that take place in the old west, such as Home On The Range".

Terms like "city-building game", "business simulation game", and "government simulation game" are used in reliable research to describe types of Construction and management simulations. There is reliable research that these are the names of different types of construction and management simulations. That said, the gameplay is often fundamentally the same, with each type determined by a change in focus. If you wanted to call for a merge, I'd be okay with that. It's a thin line between a new genre and simply a variation in theme on an existing genre. Terms like trade simulation and economic simulation should be regarded as synonyms or slight variations on this theme, and ought to be listed under within the business simulation article/section. Randomran (talk) 17:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I would just like to quote myself from the CfD for Trading simulation games as to my rational for renaming the page to "Economic simulation game":

"Actually, you got that backwards i.e. it was said that economic simulations were a sub-category of business simulations: business is an aspect of economics, ergo business simulations are a sub-category of economic simulators. Other aspects, besides "legitimate business" include state interference and crime."

SharkD (talk) 00:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It's an original argument, but wikipedia isn't a place for original research. The actual research reveals a lot of people tossing around terms like "economic simulation" and "business simulation", and they're often used interchangeably to describe the same games. The two major reasons that "business simulation" makes more sense is because: (1) the references that describe the actual game mechanics in more detail refer to these as "business simulations" (and "management simulations", actually). (2) when this article was called "economic simulation", nearly any game with an economy was included in the list: city-building games, RTSs, wargames... even RPGs. Business simulation is used interchangeably with economic simulation game, and has clearer boundaries for the purposes of wikipedia. Randomran (talk) 02:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Once again, you are throwing around statements, like "lack of proper research" and "better research here" without providing any references. If you don't cite any sources, it makes your position look very weak. SharkD (talk) 02:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't care how my position looks, the research is there. I'm talking about the Ernest Adams source, which goes into detail about the game genre. It's a wealth of information and I've only thrown out a few nuggets. A lot of the other references out there only use the terminology, but never describe it in detail. Worse still, there's a lot of references that talk about simulations that aren't games and more training exercises and so on. That's in addition to the other reason I listed above. Randomran (talk) 02:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

You've just provided a single source. You said there were multiple sources. I don't see how you can place so much undue weight on a single source. There are people with varying opinions, and you can't just use a single source to override many sources. SharkD (talk) 03:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

There aren't really varying opinions. We've established that economic simulations and business simulations are used interchangeably. All other things being equal, it's a coin toss. There's a few arguments that tip the balance towards business simulation. As far as describing what they actually are (rather than simply reciting the term), Adams one goes into the most detail by a landslide. That's in addition to the problem with "economic simulation" sounding like it includes any game that simulates an economy, and encouraging miscategorization. Randomran (talk) 03:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

"Any game that simulates an economy" is exactly what the term is used for. The term is meant for games that simulate a real economy with multiple entities acting and reacting to one another in a dynamical system. It's not just for a simple sim where you control a single business and worry about profit margins and production output in isolation. SharkD (talk) 06:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Virtually any game has a simulated economy. The economic simulation article and category had the same problems as "list of physics based games": virtually anything qualifies, and it's usually some weird gut reaction that decides what makes the list or not. You're going to see RTSs and even RPGs in there. It's hard to stop the flow of original research of "oh, this is an economic simulation". Like I said, reliable resources use economic simulation and business simulation interchangeably. All other things being equal, we have one pretty good source and one high quality source that go into detail about business simulations (rather than economic simulations), and a more clear name to prevent miscategorization. Randomran (talk) 18:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Should taglines be aloud in VG articles?Gears Of War 16:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see why they would be needed. They don't really add anything. -- Sabre (talk) 19:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, let me state my opinion this way: if allowing taglines in the article body reduces the compulsion to add it as a subtitle in the article name, I'm all for it. Ham Pastrami (talk) 00:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Well in that case I have added a tagline to Soulcalibur IV.Gears Of War 13:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe we should add tagline to the infobox.Gears Of War 13:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I should have made my position clearer: I don't consider taglines to be worth including in an article unless it is relevant to a discussion of marketing or such ("John Romero's going to make you his bitch" is a keeper). But taglines are often questionably interpreted as subtitles, and they get put into the title of the game or article, which is even worse. So if there is a dispute as to whether a tagline should be in a title/article, I'd accept leaving it in the article as an interim compromise. I do not endorse adding taglines in general. Ham Pastrami (talk) 22:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Is anyone interested in working together to bring SimCity 4 to Featured Article status? Gary King (talk) 15:39, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Go on what are the things should be improved also i wish even articles like Company of Heroes, The Sims 2, World in Conflict and Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword to be FL as well. Any help GK?. Iam doing my best to improve but my writing skills is terrible which iam working on.--SkyWalker (talk) 18:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I've played and beaten all of those games, and I'd like to improve them, too. I'd like to see Civilization 4 to FA after SC4 is done. Gary King (talk) 18:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Would like to help, I'll give the page a look through to get an idea of how it is and what may be lacking. On a side note, how does one beat The Sims 2?? Chan Yin Keen | ^UserTalk _Contribs 01:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The Sims is designed so that you can't "beat" it. It's an open-ended game. Gary King (talk) 04:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Toad should not be merged with List_of_Mario_series_characters. Toad has played a notable role in too many Mario games to be fit into one section of an article. Ghost109 (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Source? Kariteh (talk) 19:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean, source? Anyone who's played a good number of Mario games should know that Toad has played a number of roles, most of them helpful in some way. Ghost109 (talk) 20:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

A topic is 'notable' if it has been covered in multiple, reliable, third party sources (WP:N. Bridies (talk) 21:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

One important point in this is if Toad has notability outside of the games themselves (out-of-universe information), then he may be deserving of his own article. However, I doubt this is the case - aside from being a significant character in a variety of Nintendo games, he doesn't likely have much real-world coverage, in the same vein as Mario or Samus Aran. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

←Took a quick glance at the article, and it definitely looks like something that would be much better suited for a gaming wiki. The other characters mentioned in the article are not nearly as notable as the main Toad character - the article is confused with trying to distinguish between the character and the race. I think a little more expansion in the List of Characters would suffice, and the main article should be merged or deleted. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Toad has about as much real-world coverage as Princess Peach, who has her own article. Peach is a playable character in the Mario Kart, Mario Party, and Mario Sports series. So is Toad. Peach was playable in Super Mario Bros. 2, so was Toad. Peach did have one side scroller for the DS, which is one of the only games where she is playable and Toad is not. To the guy who wanted me to find a coverage on Toad or something-http://uk.stars.ign.com/objects/960/960455.html...Ghost109 (talk) 00:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem was while the required notability info exists, nobody went around and dug for it and the article wasn't cleaned up. A Toad article would be good enough to have on WP...but not in the form that one was.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I linked that source the last time this was discussed. There needs to be more than one, with enough info to actually write an article. Bridies (talk) 06:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't think there is enough info to write a Toad article? And what do you suggest, Kung Fu man? Ghost109 (talk) 17:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

First, make a subpage and gather your resources. Put notes and references that aren't design related from nintendo in one group, design notes in another, merchandise notes in a third, and third party reception notes (such as IGN) in a fourth. Basically from there try to flesh out the article on the subpage as if you're speaking on the subject to someone that knows little about video games, looking at stuff like Master Chief (Halo) for examples. Flesh out appearances as well but don't go blow by blow too much: you can group most of the video game appearances in one paragraph, while the Super Mario Bros. Super Show cartoon's works for a paragraph of its own, with the movie an added footnote to it. When you have something put together, show it to folks here by linking them to the subpage, ask what they think and if it's all good put it back out there. That's your best bet.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There's a motherload of articles that really need a lot of work.

Lots of items of questionable notability:

• Minor power objects in Sonic the Hedgehog
• Minor technology in Sonic the Hedgehog
• Roboticizer
• Chaos Emeralds
• List of Items in Sonic the Hedgehog
• Super transformation (other media) - I added this one. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 23:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Lots of locations of questionable notability:

• Angel Island (Sonic the Hedgehog)
• Earth (Sonic the Hedgehog)
• Hidden Palace Zone
• Knothole
• Minor locations in Sonic the Hedgehog
• Mobius (Sonic the Hedgehog)
• Mobotropolis
• Nameless Zone
• Shanazar
• Special Stage (Sonic the Hedgehog)
• Special Zone (Sonic the Comic)
• The Void (Sonic the Hedgehog)

And don't even get me started on the characters: Category:Sonic the Hedgehog characters

This is such a tangled mess I hardly want to deal with it. I know it's probably intimidating for other editors too. But I figure I could flag it, if only for someone to tackle it at a later date. If anyone has a manageable solution rather than dealing with each article one-by-one, I'm sure we'd all benefit from it. Randomran (talk) 21:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, good luck there. Even on the grounds they need major improvement, a lot of it would face royal hell done en masse. The character ones would be the hardest problem...possibly merging the "zones" together though with care to keep content loss at near nill would be a good place to start for anyone tackling it.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

They're definitely going to need some work. Anything relating to the single items or locations of the series should just redirect to the series article at this point. I don't believe there are any worthwhile topics there. As for the characters, I have proposed before that only seven articles (Sonic the Hedgehog (character), Miles "Tails" Prower, Knuckles the Echidna, Doctor Eggman, Shadow the Hedgehog, Metal Sonic, and Amy Rose) and seven character lists (List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games), Sonic the Hedgehog (comic book) characters, Sonic the Comic characters, List of characters from Sonic X, List of characters in Sonic the Hedgehog (TV Series), List of characters in Sonic Underground, and Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog characters) be kept, give or take one or two. That would be a good goal to start off with. TTN (talk) 22:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

A good step forward in this cleanup process would be to talk some sense into the Sonic fans at WikiProject Sega. User:Krator (t c) 23:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict with Krator). Apparently, I think TTN and Krator misunderstood me every time we've had a discussion, so please allow me to clarify. I think TTN's idea in this case is a good one, because this really is a lot of cruft (and you're getting that comment from the most active member of WikiProject Sega). However, I would like to extend the amount of articles (for characters) to eleven; adding Cream the Rabbit, Blaze the Cat, Silver the Hedgehog, and Rouge the Bat, which I think are more notable than the rest and if the correct information can be sifted out from all the fancruft that's out there on the internet, these four would make decent articles, as well. The others, I don't even see a snowball's chance in hell about finding the correct information. The zone articles, and I mean all of them should be either deleted or redirected, since those are obvious non-notable parts of the series. The only article I'm questioning on that list is Chaos Emeralds because the merger I set up hasn't done much good and I'm still not sure what to do with it. I've also added Super transformation (other media) to this list, as it's all full of fancruft and we didn't merge that into Chaos Emeralds, since I had a toss-up over merging or deleting and I still haven't decided. If TTN would be willing to flex with me on these last four articles—seeing as how we've had our debates before—then I'll be happy to support TTN's plan and I'll even help him get it done. The only user you have to worry about is User:Fairfieldfencer, a very rash inclusionist and the only other real active part of the project. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 23:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone just do me a favor and inform either WikiProject Sega or the Sonic Task Force (under construction) for me about this setup? Most of the project is full of extreme inclusionists (I consider myself a moderate eventualist and slight inclusionist) and I'd rather not incur the wrath of the people I work with. By the way, the Sonic Task Force is part of WikiProject Sega that is under construction because Sonic articles constitute a good chunk (but not more than 25%) of the project's articles and I, along with others, felt it necessary to have. We're still building it and making it active, but what we're talking about here would be a good step forward for both WikiProject Sega and the Sonic Task Force, to have major cleanup done. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 23:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, once the guideline discussion wraps up, I think they're going to have a hard time stopping us from merging as its a pretty obvious case of non-notable fictional elements... I'd rather they come quietly, but... *shrug* I'm busy cleaning up Myst cruft, so I'll recuse myself from another odious task this time around. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 23:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who isn't part of WikiProject Sega, who enjoyed the first three games in the series and who thought most of the rest of them really sucked, I would suggest the following:

• Delete and/or merge the vast majority of character articles. Leave articles for truly notable characters (Sonic, Knuckles, Rouge, Cream, Robotnik, etc.) only if sources support them.
• Delete all of the locations articles. All of the ones I've looked at so far (a) are in-universe only, and (b) have no specific meaning or notability outside of the game.
• Delete all of the technology articles and condense only the most notable material into a general article about the series. It is absolutely fine to talk about the general (and repeated) concept of turning animals/living beings into robots - that defined the series. But we don't need details or even summaries of all the various ways in which this is done - just mentioning the existence of a variety of machines should be sufficient.
• In notable character articles, more out-of-universe information is needed. The articles seem rather heavy on in-universe info and character evolution, as well as semi-unrelated details about other characters that were considered (Robotnik's article suffers heavily from this).
• I would suggest that common themes and items (like Chaos Emeralds, Power Rings, etc.) should be mentioned in brief prose in a series article, and as appropriate within individual game articles. Again, it's a question of what's needed to get the average non-gaming reader to understand the game (or series, or individual character) as a whole, and what that reader would really care about if they didn't already know a lot about the game.

I know I'm kinda beating the same drum here, but these are my thoughts after reviewing about half the articles in the above list. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I tend to be an eventualist too. I don't think we have to deal with the whole mess right now and I think it would be enough to even put a dent in some of this. For that reason, I think it's better to focus on whatever we agree with than to pick fights over the few things that we disagree over.
I'd be willing to initiate talks with wikiproject sega. I presume at their usual talk page? My only question is what you'd want me to say. I know a lot of people are resistant to change, and I want people to understand that I'm doing this to improve the wikipedia, not as an uptight power trip. Randomran (talk) 00:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't other trying to split this between here and the Sega project. They only have a few active members (I would personally call it dead), and one of them has already commented here. Leave a note for sure, but the ones that haven't commented here will have little to add to the discussion. They'll only add to the need to play the number consensus game. TTN (talk) 00:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and for the video game characters, this revision of the main list would be a good start. It contains the important recurring characters, while the one game characters on the two remaining lists should redirect to their game of origin. TTN (talk) 00:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

That's not a bad revision, TTN. I would agree with starting with that. It's pretty clean-cut, covers the most important bases, and it is much improved compared to all the cruft. Not to mention, of course, that it leaves the four articles I mentioned intact. I will have to get started finding sources and out-of-universe information, but it's going to take a little time to sift through the cruft, not to mention I'm a little busy right now off Wikipedia.

Oh, and what's with all this discrimination on WikiProject Sega? I've been trying to steer it away from the leech-bed of problems that it was (including getting its founder, Gaogier, indefinitely blocked and forcing him to leave) and make it a more active, less one-sided affair. That's why I invited members like Bridies, who categorized himself as an exclusionist and immediatist (in direct contrast to views of others like Fairfieldfencer, the only other continuously active member). We've got 40 members, but no one else uses the pages, which is a fact that bothers me about this project I've put a lot of time into. Sorry for the off-topic discussion, just my rant for the day. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 01:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with what's been said. There's even more extraneous articles than I was aware of. Bridies (talk) 02:10, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I also don't think Blaze, Cream etc are notable. All I can find is a single source each on IGN (maybe 2 for blaze). Team Dark, Team Rose, blaze. Bridies (talk) 02:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Before I say this, let me note that I know that popularity does not equal notability. However, of the characters I listed, Rouge has appeared in at least ten games as of now, Cream has been in at least four as a major character and appeared in many more as a playable, Blaze has been a major character in three games, and Silver was major in Sonic the Hedgehog (2006 game) but has also appeared in several later games, such as Sonic Battle and its sequel. That said, I think we can establish notability for these characters. I'll start taking a look for sources tomorrow, I'm too tired to do it tonight and I have things to do. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 04:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, would anybody mind if I started off with the TV series characters? I mean character articles such as Chris Thorndyke, Cosmo, Metarex, Mania, etc. As many agree here, they do not have enough nobility to warrant their own articles. The same goes with Sonic comic characters, there is over 12 character articles on this subject, and as mentioned, do not warrant enough nobility to keep as articles. Magiciandude (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

At least the comic character articles have to go. Most of those are filled with excessive plot summaries and are generally not notable. For these articles, I favor deletion because I doubt that even in a list format it will have any notability or As for the TV series, I'm not exactly sure what the standard is for TV character articles in terms of notability, but in this case I favor a merge. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 04:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure no problem, I had already placing merge tages for the TV character series. I wanted to start with the TV series. Magiciandude (talk) 04:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'll start with the locations. I know these tend to be messy, but I think a blanket AFD is the best way to deal with all of these articles. Not one of them is notable and getting rid of them together will make the process much easier. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 04:27, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's the AFD on the locations. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Angel Island (Sonic the Hedgehog)

First, I'd like to see if there is a Wiki(a) we can transwiki those articles to which are not notable. They look fairly detailed even for cruft, which I'm sure would be welcome on a Sonic Wikia. I would claim I'm a precisionist leaning inclusionist... As for the others, redirects to a list of minor / major characters of a series is an option, or as has already been done, redirects to the games which the most minor of characters are present in I would feel appropriate. --Izno (talk) 05:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Here, this Sonic Wiki is part of Wikia. Magiciandude (talk) 09:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added info on what it would take to transwiki the articles to the AFD page. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 13:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Good job everyone. Thanks for taking this on. Now, what are we gonna do about the non-notable items? (Roboticizer and the like?) Randomran (talk) 18:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you can put together items and power objects and whatever else that is relevant into one list. Redirect anything else that can be redirected (like Chaos Emeralds into the series article section, yes, I've given up on that article), and delete anything else in separate AFD's. I don't think we can blanket these like we could the others. I'm going to go ahead and put up the AFD for Super transformation (other media) since it's the wastes of other articles anyway. It will be at the link below. (link should turn from red to blue after I put up the AFD here in a few minutes.)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Super transformation (other media)

That's just my opinion, of course, but I think it's the best action. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 21:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

(long sigh) Well, getting accused of being a sockpuppeteer by an IP address in the Angel Island AFD is a little disheartening. Anyway, I'm going to propose a redirect: Chaos Emeralds to Sonic the Hedgehog (series)#Emeralds per a suggestion by TTN a few weeks ago. I seriously doubt the article would survive an AFD anyway and there's really nowhere else to put it (I think Minor power objects in Sonic the Hedgehog is probably a little inappropriate for such a redirect). It's kind of weird to be proposing all these deletions and redirects and merges; I certainly hope this doesn't mean my eventualist-incrementalist philosophy is changing. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 03:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't. Most of us go through phases. I've been on a cleanup binge lately because I'm waiting for a few resources/editors to get back to me on improving some other articles. Don't let the accusations get you down. It looks like that person was just a single purpose account. We have your back if things get out of hand. Randomran (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I won't let it get me down. Just the first time that's happened to me, that's all. As long as I know I'm not a sockpuppeteer, nothing's wrong. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 04:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like E-123 Omega to be kept.Fairfieldfencer FFF 08:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And I would like to say that I am entirely against this merge!! But since I'm the only one that is: I guess I have no choice but to stand aside and let you guys get on with it.Fairfieldfencer FFF 11:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like someone's appinion on whether or not E-123 Omega falls under the keep category.Fairfieldfencer FFF 20:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Could someone please give me their appinion on the article being kept?!Fairfieldfencer FFF 08:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The WikiProjects/task force may also want to look closer to home, if Sonic the Hedgehog (video game) only has a small number of sources (in particular for the 16-bit Genesis/Mega Drive release) to verify notability of what should be one of the most famous video games ever released in my opinion, then something is badly wrong (an article that should of course never be deleted in my opinion). A lot of the game articles have no sources to meet notability, strange considering Sonic's long and well known legacy in video gaming - Sonic the Hedgehog CD only has two and has a lot of citation needed tags on it. Knuckles Chaotix has two sources, one is no longer available and the other is for a forum, which goes against WP:RS. I would suggest this should be next after the "cruft" is dealt with, either by fixing or transwiki/AfD these articles. --tgheretford (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm certain the game articles do have the notability to be kept, but we really need to start cleaning these articles up. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 15:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

We don't just delete badly written articles (unless it REALLY is just a long personal opinion essay or something really off). We delete things for a lack of notability not just because they have no references, but because a quick search reveals that there are no references that meet the general notability guideline. The actual games may be badly written, but I'm sure there are references out there and a delete is not the best way to deal with them. Randomran (talk) 16:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Now, let's get on to the next order of business. What about the items? Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 00:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)r

Most video game items just aren't notable. Maybe references can show otherwise, but I don't think so. By our guidelines, a list of every item in the game isn't appropriate for articles. I would argue that these should all be deleted or redirected to a main article on the series. But if someone wants to assert that a few of these items (perhaps the rings?) are notable, then we can start the discussion there. Just my understanding of the notability requirement and the quality of these items. Randomran (talk) 03:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think that if any item is notable in the series, it's the Chaos Emeralds, and that article is such a shambles that it's not even funny. I guess we need to redirect/delete/whatever it takes to rectify this. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 14:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

And its ironic that that article was nominated for deletion in January, but kept on the condition that it is cleaned up. Clearly that hasn't happened. --tgheretford (talk) 14:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

That was before the Sega Project or the Sonic Task Force was set up. And it's been tagged for clean up on the Sega Project To-Do list for ages. And the article has recently been merged with other articles and is still incomplete. It's not RP's fault that users are too lazy to help out an article.Fairfieldfencer FFF 15:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

(long sigh) It's a shame the Sega Project has forty members but only two are active. That's probably part of why we have this problem in the first place, the project doesn't have enough actives to do its job and control the fancruft while cleaning up notable articles. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 16:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I share your frustration. The same thing happens with television and radio articles that I mostly get involved with, and appears to be a Wikipedia wide problem. I suppose its like regular housework, people are happy to edit but housekeeping isn't as enticing or motivating. --tgheretford (talk) 17:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, at least we're doing some decent work right now with this. Hopefully that will help us catch up a bit. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 02:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

May I ask why merge tags haven't been put on the articles? (Not including the Sonic X ones.)Fairfieldfencer FFF 16:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Never mind I just put them up myself.Fairfieldfencer FFF 11:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

New AFD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minor technology in Sonic the Hedgehog

What do we do with the video game characters?

We can discuss the comic characters elsewhere, and Magiciandude is dealing with the TV series characters (at least Sonic X, I think) by merging them. But now I'd like to bring up an important issue: What do we do with the video game characters?

TTN and Bridies have suggested seven character articles (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, Doctor Eggman, and Metal Sonic). I have suggested eleven (adding Silver, Rouge, Cream, and Blaze). Fairfieldfencer has suggested also keeping E-123 Omega in addition to my proposal, and I think this could be possible. For everything else, we already have List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games), Other characters in Sonic the Hedgehog, and Other villains in Sonic the Hedgehog (games) (which themselves need to be sorted out and cleaned up.) So anything that we decide not to keep as an article can be merged into that list. TTN has suggested this revision for the list; but notice that he leaves intact the four articles I suggested to be kept. For a guide to all of the Sonic characters articles and lists, we can use this template: {{Sonic characters}}